|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Summations Only | Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 4864 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: What's the problem with teaching ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So you are claiming that the asserted designer used the tools and techniques used today?
I assume that you have evidence of the lab?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Genomicus Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
SETI detects a radio signal from outer space consisting of the first 500 prime numbers. Through high-tech analysis, they determine that this is not noise from our own planet. They infer design. Do they have the lab that made the machine that generated the radio signal?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
SETI has not asserted that they have received such a signal.
If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated. Incredulous Design is still just a joke.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Genomicus Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
SETI has not asserted that they have received such a signal. I didn't say they did.
If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated. That wasn't the issue I brought up. I specifically asked if they would have to have the lab where the machinery was made that generated the signal before inferring design.
Incredulous Design is still just a joke. I'm talking about intelligent design, jar. Why must you label it with silly names and stuff? I know you mean well, but c'mon, you don't have to be even a little bit snarky. Just saying Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
ID is a joke. There is absolutely nothing to take seriously about ID.
And "Yes, SETI will have to have the lab or at least the location of the lab that generated the signal." They will have to show where the signal originated, document there actually is something at that location, and then the criticism will begin. They will have to be able to duplicate the lab, the tools, everything involved in generating teh signal. The data, the assumptions, the source, the model, the method, the mechanics of the signal will be challenged and they will not be able to infer design. Further, until some other independent unaffiliated organization can duplicate the findings it will still be labeled as "Unknown". AbE: and so far all the evidence supports Inept Design over Intelligent Design. It really is that simple. Edited by jar, : see AbE:Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Genomicus Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
Unfortunately, the SETI scientists disagree with you. They don't think they'd need to lab, the tools, etc. The same goes for cryptographers. They don't need the machine that was needed that encoded a message before inferring that an apparently random string of symbols was in fact deliberately arranged. You're basically doing away with SETI science, cryptography, archaeology (you don't need to know how a pyramid was constructed to know that it was deliberately designed), and the folks who detect fraud, in say, the lottery (you don't need to know how the fraud was carried out to know that something fishy is going on with this guy who has won 50 times in a row).
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course you need to know how it was done.
It fun I imagine making stuff up, but until it is tested, examined, duplicated it is still just fantasy. AbE: And there is still nothing to teach or even research involving ID. Edited by jar, : see AbE:Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I have a question for you:
What would the lesson plan for ID look like? And could it avoid an argument from incredulity, i.e., "We haven't figured this out yet so it must have been done through supernatural means?" Isn't ID just an effort to introduce the supernatural into public school education so that an alternative is presented to scientific explanations? If this is not the case, what would the lesson plan for ID look like?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated. This task might not be the least bit difficult. There are huge numbers of ways to program a machine to generate prime numbers. As long as the signal was not from a source that was seemingly impossible to control or modulate, it would be more difficult to imagine a natural source that generated the first 500 prime numbers. Genomicus point is simply that it might be possible to have indirect evidence for a designer. I agree, at least in principle. Just because specified complexity and irreducible complexity are abject failures does not mean that no other tool indirect evidence can exist. ID is junk. The current state of ID does indeed seem to be argument by incredibility of "evolution".Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And if and when they do provide something to test it will be tested, just as it has been in each case.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Genomicus Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
Of course you need to know how it was done. Why don't you take that up with the SETI scientists, cryptographers, and archaeologists? You're basically doing away with a whole bunch of peer-reviewed papers which rely on the fact that you don't have to know how X was designed in order to infer design. So, really, I have nothing to worry with your idea since I have many, many, many scientists to back up my methodology of inferring design.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Bring them on.
Give me a cite and we will look at it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Genomicus Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
Genomicus point is simply that it might be possible to have indirect evidence for a designer. Correct. I disagree with the use of specified complexity to infer design, and irreducible complexity in itself is not a signal of design since non-teleological processes can produce IC systems.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
SETI detects a radio signal from outer space consisting of the first 500 prime numbers. Through high-tech analysis, they determine that this is not noise from our own planet. They infer design. Do they have the lab that made the machine that generated the radio signal? No, but they have machines that generate radio signals.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Genomicus Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
Arnold, L. Transit Light-Curve Signatures Of Artificial Objects. The Astrophysical Journal, 627:534—539 (2005).
Here's the abstract:The forthcoming space missions, able to detect Earth-like planets by the transit method, will a fortiori also be able to detect the transits of artificial planet-sized objects. Multiple artificial objects would produce light curves easily distinguishable from natural transits. If only one artificial object transits, detecting its artificial nature becomes more difficult. We discuss the case of three different objects (triangle, two-screen, and louver-like six-screen) and show that they have transit light curves distinguishable from the transits of natural planets, either spherical or oblate, although an ambiguity with the transit of a ringed planet exists in some cases." Specific points the author makes: "Current Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) programs concentrate on the search for radio or optical laser pulses emissions (Tarter 2001). We propose here an alternative approach for a new SETI: considering that artificial planet-size bodies may exist around other stars, and that such objects always transit in front of their parent star for a given remote observer, we may thus have an opportunity to detect and even characterize them by the transit method, assuming these transits are distinguishable from a simple planetary transit..." A point here, too:"We have shown that detecting an artificial object from its transit lightcurve shape requires an excellent photometric accuracy." You see, according to this paper, we can infer that an object is artificial based on its transit lightcurve shape. More:"Transit of artificial objects also could be a mean for interstellar communication from Earth in the future. We therefore suggest to future human generations to have in mind, at the proper time, the potential of Earth-size artificial multiple structures in orbit around our star to produce distinguishable and intelligent transits." [emphasis not added] Hmm. Looks like these shapes of artificial objects would produce an intelligent transit. Now, please email the author of this paper that before inferring the artificial nature of one of these objects, you have to know how the object was designed. Will you do that, please? Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024