Summations Only

So you are the grand definer of what is rational and what is not?Gimme a break!

You're an idiot. So long as the parties each get something of greater value to them out of the exchange than what they put in, they are both acting rationally.

Value, of course.What else could it be?

No, wise ass.Because of the value of what they get in returnexperience, college credit, references, networking, information, etc.Same way people work for purchasing power.Other people are willing and ready to work for something other than purchasing power.But according to you, that makes them irrational.

And so naturally... everyone should do it the Crashfrog way.NOT!

And when you're freshly released from prison for possession of illegal drugs, having anyone who can say you are good at anything will go miles toward getting you a real job and a real life.Same if you've been unemployed for nine monthshaven't had to show up on time anywhere for nine months, haven't had to interact with customers for nine months, haven't had to interact with co-workers for nine months, haven't demonstrated to anyone that you are dependable for nine months. Having someone who can at least vouch for your ability, willingness, and performance in doing even the basic things expected of paid employees really gives you a leg up over all those people who have just been sitting on the couch for nine months.Granted, I think that the government's efforts are better spent helping people get experience at more career-oriented things than stocking shelves, but hey, when rsum time comes around, putting down any job is better than putting down no job, and putting down any reference is better than putting down no reference.And I'm sorry, Crash, I truly am sorry that your mind is so closed to realizing even these most basic truths of the world we live in.JonEdited by Jon, : No reason given.

Except the cost of supplies and materials and the required education.Say you want to become a diesel mechanic. How do you get experience being a diesel mechanic? Do you buy a few semi tractors? Do you go down to the train yard and see if they have a locomotive you can borrow?And those tools... oh those tools! Unless you're screwing bolts in with your fingers, you're going to need some tools. How will you get those?Then once you get those essentials, you need to start practicing. But where do you start? Do you just find one of your expensive diesel rigs that doesn't work and start tearing it apart? Do you try a dozen fixes for each part before finally getting lucky fixing the problem or unlucky completely destroying your expensive engine? How do you know what to do to avoid throwing endless amounts of cash down the drain replacing your guinea pig diesel engines?And then, finally, how does our "unprivileged" fellow "who can't afford to work for free" find the resources not only to sit around fixing and destroying diesel rigs with no pay but to actually pay for all the supplies and 'teaching materials' himself?So where do the "unprivileged" get the cash to just "go out and have the experience"? 'Cause I'm feelin' a little unprivileged of late, and my inquiring mind would really like to know how I can get experience without working for free or forking over large sums of money for supplies (= worse than working for free).Or should I just stop complaining and go do it? If a fella really wants to be a diesel mechanic, should he just stop complaining? Perhaps he should. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps he should just go have the experience.I mean, after all, there's literally nothing stopping him!

Except, of course, the people who don't.

They'll benefit more than working for nothing plus having to buy a $3 wrench.And that's what it's all about: maximizing benefits. For the simple fact that none of those things you mentioned have anything to do with the scenario I set up.Unless, of course, you can point me to the places where I said "has absolutely never seen an engine, never held or owned a tool, can't get into mechanic school, can't read a book on the subject, and works 20 hours a day leaving no time to do anything else".Can you find where I said that? Even if experience fixing diesel engines is the only thing separating them from a life of welfare benefits and a life of productive, meaningful employment?Really?That's your honest position?Really?

You're simply sidetracking and avoiding the actual issues raised against your position.And aside from mechanics who own their own shops, I am completely unaware of any professional shops in which the mechanics are required to provide their own basic tools. And I am almost certain that no shops exist that require the employees to provide their own car lifts, engine lifts, air compressors, battery chargers, and (especially) replacement parts. I quite possibly did; I don't know. You might want to help me remember by pointing me to the places in my posts where I said "has absolutely never seen an engine, never held or owned a tool, can't get into mechanic school, can't read a book on the subject, and works 20 hours a day leaving no time to do anything else".Do you think you could do that for me? They don't have a "pile of tools", nor a "degree from a technical college in Diesel Engine Repair". And in many instances, neither of those things are requirements for being a diesel mechanic.Anyway; if you're just going to keep avoiding the issue, then there's no point continuing with you. I'm here to have a discussion, not watch you fall all over yourself trying to justify your down-right stupid declaration that people who want work experience are better off if, instead of accepting unpaid work experience positions, they instead go out and have experience for which they not only aren't paid, but for which they have to actually pay.Your position is just stupid.

None.There are other incentives, though.

Who said being decent and hard-working isn't average? I happen to think it is. Most people are decent, and most work pretty hard.The above average are people who are truly innovative, truly ahead of their times, truly different, truly revolutionary.Unpaid work experience, if it does nothing else, at least tells future employers that you are part of the average, and not part of the below average. It puts you in the game; and that's more than can be said of doing nothing with your time unemployed.I know you agree with that, but I thought I'd say it anyway.Jon

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Modulous in Message 74:

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crashfrog writes:

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To riff off of CS's example, below, nobody's opinion of your photography skills is going to be improved by your "experience" of getting coffee for photographers.

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If you're a moron who spends their days with a photographer and who only participates in coffee errands, maybe.

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But sensible people will observe setting up shots, trade tips for quick colour balancing, will ask questions about exposure settings and learning the justifications for each. They'll learn how to approach clients and drum up business, how to sell their work, what work sells quick, what work sells high.

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Hmmm....

But this is a non-solution to the problem at hand. Even a couple of months of unemployment can make landing a job difficult if not impossible. How long does it take to kick in? To show prospective employers that you can hold a job. More impressed than if you did nothing.And that's what this is all about. Unpaid work experience may not be as valuable in landing a job as paid work experience, but it is more valuable than no work experience at all.

But in the interim, while we are trying to reduce unemployment, we can also be making sure that the currently unemployed don't become permanently unemployable.