Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 76 (8908 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-23-2019 7:03 AM
23 online now:
Heathen, PaulK, Pressie, RAZD, vimesey (5 members, 18 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WeloTemo
Post Volume:
Total: 851,886 Year: 6,922/19,786 Month: 1,463/1,581 Week: 285/393 Day: 9/99 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void
GDR
Member
Posts: 4783
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 7 of 80 (665738)
06-16-2012 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LexM1985
06-16-2012 7:48 AM


LexM1985 writes:

I wasn't entirely sure how to phrase the subject, but I'll explain what I mean:
I hear time and again from Christians that because of Jesus' coming, crucifixion, and resurrection all Christians are exempt from the Law of the old Testament. "The coming of Jesus changed everything!" This claim often comes up when the topic is raised about the contentious codes of Leviticus- stoning unruly children, slavery, eating shellfish, wearing clothes with multiple fibers, etc. I've looked into the bible (at the passages I was directed to by Christians) to find any explicit passages that demonstrate that Jesus' coming made the old Law null and void, but all I found was a passage related specifically to animal sacrifices. It's also alleged that Jesus himself broke some of these laws which I guess could give credence to the claim.
I don't really think there is a definitive right or wrong answer to this one despite the fact many people clearly think there is. The bible is riddled with so many inconsistencies and contradictions that it can be used to support virtually anything. If I where to make a case that the Old Testament Law still applied I'd cite John 14:15 in which Jesus says "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
or
Matthew 5:17, 5:18 in which Jesus says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill"
It goes on to say that the Jewish law will not change until Heaven and Earth cease to exist

Also, I believe that Psalm 19 asserts that Mosaic law is perfect. It is also deemed infallible on several other occasions in the Old Testament.

I'm fairly new to theology and I want to hear other and alternate positions than the usual Christian one.

Ill have a go at this based on my understanding of Christian Scripture. First off I think that we make a mistake when we base our understanding of God and our lives based on individual verses without first have a firm grasp on the whole narrative and its meaning.

Within that framework I would say that the Mosaic laws are timeless but they are only symptoms of a greater truth. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 10:

quote:
23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.
I think the point that Paul is making, which I suggest is consistent in context with what Christ taught, is that it isnt about keeping specific laws but that in the end it is all about our hearts.

Jesus said this in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:

quote:
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This gives us a more specific case to work with. Do we remain faithful to our spouses out of fear? It might be fear of getting caught and taken to the cleaners in divorce court or even fear of God. Do we not steal because of fear of winding up in prison, or again out of fear that God will punish us? Or, do we remain faithful to our spouses and honest in our dealings because that is where our heart is and that is our choice even if we knew that we would never be caught, questioned or punished in any way shape or form? It is that question that I think both Paul and Jesus are addressing.

So yes, the laws remain as a guide post to the real thing that is desired of us which is of course that we have hearts that love truth, peace, justice forgiveness, kindness, mercy, humility, joy and a love for love itself.

AbE: I thought that I would sum it up this way. It isn't about what we do or don't do, but about "why" we do what we do or don't do.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LexM1985, posted 06-16-2012 7:48 AM LexM1985 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 06-20-2012 10:39 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4783
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 14 of 80 (666014)
06-20-2012 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
06-20-2012 10:39 AM


Jon writes:

It gives us a specific case, yes, but is it a relevant case? Even Paul, who says: "it is evidence that no man is justified before God by the law" (Gal 3:11), gives moral teachings, particularly on marriage (see 1 Corinthians , for example). Marriage, murder, adulterythese things are still part of the Christian moral teaching; these parts of the Law didn't just disappear like other parts.

I think that it is completely relevant, but so are the other examples that you use. I think that part of the problem is that we tend to think to much along the lines of human laws of behaviour instead of laws of the heart.

I'll go back to what I said before except apply it to murder. If the only thing that stops us from murdering is due to negative consequences for ourselves then from a God perspective for us personally there isn't a lot of difference, if any, between that and actually committing murder.

The reason I used adultery is because of the quote I used earlier from Matthew 5.

quote:
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The point is that it is about having our heart in the right place. If our heart is in the right place then there are no need for the laws because our natural desire is to follow the laws instinctively. The laws IMHO are examples of what it looks like when are hearts are in the right place.

AbE I remembered this passage from Romans 2 later.

quote:
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

I think it is fairly clear in this reading. If people see themselves as being subject to the Jewish laws then they would be going against what they believe God wants of them if they break them. However, Paul then goes on to say that the laws are written on the hearts of the Gentiles. Regardless of the laws or any religious belief we know in our hearts when we act in our own self interest at the expense of the interest of another, and we know at one level or another that should resist the temptation to do that. (end of edit)

Jon writes:

The parts of the Law that are really relevant are keeping kosher and circumcision. These were, as jar already pointed out, 'deal breakers' for early Gentile Christians who did not like having to give up certain foods or be bothered by the finer points of food preparation and were even more so against mutilating their penises.

These are the parts of the Law that really got dropped and set aside as the Jesus movement developed into the Christian religion.

Paul writes this in Romans 14:

quote:
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The Jewish laws on circumcision and the kosher food laws were, IMHO, a point of reference that distinguished the Jews from their neighbours. It gave them a sense of identity and marked them as the people of Yahweh. For Jews that might or might not continue to be an issue but for Gentiles, in most cases, it shouldn't have been an issue at all.

I think that Paul's point is that if in your heart you believe that by eating certain foods, (or not being circumcised for that matter), you are contravening what God wants of you then you should abstain from eating those foods.

In a more secular sense it someone is an alcoholic then pass on the beer. For myself, it doesn't matter one way or the other if I have a beer, but if I'm out with someone who is alcoholic then I should abstain.

It is about the heart or about what drives us to do what we do or don't do.

Edited by GDR, : In text


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 06-20-2012 10:39 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4783
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 17 of 80 (666077)
06-21-2012 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
06-21-2012 4:59 PM


Jon writes:

Are we going to talk about the parts of the Law that were dropped as Christianity developed?

In a sense I don't see any of the laws being dropped. It is just that all of the laws are incorporated into Christ's message of love of God and love of neighbour.

If someone is Jewish and believe that the OT laws should apply to them then that is what they should do. Again as Paul says:

quote:
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

If you believe that God desires that you don't eat pork then don't eat it. It isn't specifically about what we do or don't do. It is all about loving God and neighbour. If we truly love God and neighbour then then there is no need for any shalls and shall nots as we will instinctively do what is right.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 06-21-2012 4:59 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019