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Author Topic:   Infuriating arguments
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 1 of 56 (665880)
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


I've just struggled through thousands of words of stupid trying to explain the 2nd law of thermodynamics to someone who claims that evolution violates it.
I finally realised the futility when I was informed that the Earth is an isolated system, the universe is an open system and that energy from the sun cannot reach the surface of Earth because of the atmosphere blocking it and that no planets with an atmosphere can ever receive any energy from the sun. Oh and when we see distant stars, we're not actually seeing the stars, we're seeing the light from them.
How do you deal with this level of ignorance without losing the will to live? I'm open to any suggestion. I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Panda, posted 06-19-2012 10:21 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 4 by rueh, posted 06-19-2012 10:23 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 5 by Genomicus, posted 06-19-2012 10:41 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 6 by Modulous, posted 06-19-2012 11:00 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 8 by frako, posted 06-19-2012 11:44 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2012 12:33 PM Trixie has not replied
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2012 1:21 PM Trixie has not replied
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2012 1:53 PM Trixie has not replied
 Message 15 by Rahvin, posted 06-19-2012 2:37 PM Trixie has not replied
 Message 16 by dwise1, posted 06-19-2012 3:14 PM Trixie has replied
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 06-19-2012 5:10 PM Trixie has not replied
 Message 46 by Son Goku, posted 06-24-2012 2:18 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-25-2012 2:36 PM Trixie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 2 of 56 (665881)
06-19-2012 9:53 AM


Wilfull Ignorance
There is little hope for those who choose to be ignorant like those in the example you mention. The CCoI in action.
Just Clap the Dust from your sandals and move on to the next town.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 3 of 56 (665882)
06-19-2012 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


Trixie writes:
I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.
Since we can see the sun but energy cannot reach us from the sun, therefore light cannot be a form of energy.
Makes sense.
I wonder what light actually is?
Trixie writes:
Oh and when we see distant stars, we're not actually seeing the stars, we're seeing the light from them.
Technically, this is correct.
All we ever see is light - either reflected or emitted.
But good luck explaining anything to someone that bans you for repeating what is little more than primary school science.
"Stupid is as stupid does."
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

CRYSTALS!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
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rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


(2)
Message 4 of 56 (665883)
06-19-2012 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


Trixie writes:
I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.
You must be posting at Evolutionfairytale :{)}}} Sometimes you just have to realize there is no hope for some folks. They are happy in their willfull ignorance and won't let any of Satans followers deceive them of their Truth. In my opinion some headaches just aren't worth it. It's much better to have a productive conversation where ideas can be exchanged than to try and brow beat the stupid out of folks.
ABE: One other thing to consider is that your conversation however unproductive it may be with the other participant, is available for others to see and learn from. Being a professional lurker here at EVC I have read many threads where the information that was provided was summarily ignored by the other participant but was of great value to myself. Just thought I would put that out there inorder to inspire you.
Edited by rueh, : No reason given.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 5 of 56 (665884)
06-19-2012 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


How do you deal with this level of ignorance without losing the will to live? I'm open to any suggestion. I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.
No matter how correct your arguments may be, if someone chooses to be dogmatic about their position, no amount of reason will convince them otherwise. So you have to find those people who seem to be genuinely interested in science. You need to find those few people who have an open mind and can, in fact, be convinced by the scientific evidence.
The dogmatic people pride themselves in their immovable stance. Meanwhile, someone who is actually interested in truth won't be like that.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 56 (665885)
06-19-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


How do you deal with this level of ignorance without losing the will to live? I'm open to any suggestion. I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.
I'd personally ask how flowers produce glucose, how the water cycle works, the seasons or solar power and deal with the inevitable ban

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 56 (665886)
06-19-2012 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
06-19-2012 11:00 AM


Modulous writes:
...solar power...
That's the one I was wondering about. I guess if energy from the sun can't reach the Earth's surface then "solar energy" must just be a misnomer.
It's scary when you realize these people vote.
I'm in the middle of the movie Anonymous, and de Vere just got excoriated by his wife for risking family shame by writing. Now there's an interesting form of ignorance.
--Percy

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 24 by nwr, posted 06-19-2012 5:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 8 of 56 (665888)
06-19-2012 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.
Ask them what warms the water in a black boiler on the roof of my "summer-home", during the day but does not warm it during the night.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 56 (665891)
06-19-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


I finally realised the futility when I was informed that the Earth is an isolated system, the universe is an open system and that energy from the sun cannot reach the surface of Earth because of the atmosphere blocking it and that no planets with an atmosphere can ever receive any energy from the sun.
I believe laughter, rather frustration is the best response. Take comfort in the fact that the person you are talking to won't be able to convince most people that water is wet, let alone that the universe was created in 6 days.
I don't believe that a person who says this stuff is merely ignorant. Their ignorance is willful, and reflects a belief that any fact, no matter how obvious, can and will be rejected if that fact stands in the way of an inviolate belief.
If the person knew better, perhaps they would give a slightly more sophisticated excuse, but it should be perfectly clear that you cannot convince someone that the sun warms the earth, that you won't succeed in convincing them of anything else.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 10 of 56 (665892)
06-19-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Panda
06-19-2012 10:21 AM


Panda writes:
I wonder what light actually is?
God is light.
Panda writes:
All we ever see is light - either reflected or emitted.
Exactly. All we ever see is God.
(I'm trying to get a cheer from foreveryoung.)
Edited by ringo, : Added signature.

ringo - the "i" stands for "infuriating".

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 56 (665895)
06-19-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


Some people will say anything rather than admit that they could be wrong.
I don't suppose that the ban threat was made publicly ? If it was I'd love to see a link just so we can show how bad some sites are compared to here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 12 of 56 (665897)
06-19-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
06-19-2012 11:11 AM


I guess if energy from the sun can't reach the Earth's surface then "solar energy" must just be a misnomer.
Did anyone else ever burn ants using sunlight focused through a magnifying glass? I wonder how that works, and why you cannot do the same thing at night?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 56 (665898)
06-19-2012 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


I've been threatened with a ban if I repeat the "lie" that energy from the sun reaches the surface of Earth.
Surely there must be some stuff on AIG or CMI's web page that acknowledges the sun. I'd be sorely tempted to try posting some of that stuff.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 14 of 56 (665900)
06-19-2012 2:24 PM


It's a Facebook group called "The Reliablility of the Bible Put to the Test". Yes, really, the reliabLility

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(3)
Message 15 of 56 (665902)
06-19-2012 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
06-19-2012 9:41 AM


I have seen an awful lot of wrong in my life, but not since YouTube user VenomFangX have I seen wrong on that scale.
You're faced with terminal stupidity (a combination of shocking ignorance, absolute confidence, and the determination that anyone who disagrees is a tool of the devil and therefore all argument is an attempt at damnation). I'm not sure that level of wrong can be fixed.
I mean...proving "energy from the Sun reaches the surface of the Earth" is as easy as going outside on a sunny day and noticing that the sunlight feels warm. Even without consideration of solar power or photosynthesis or any of the myriad other obvious observations, surely the simplest proof is just noticing that here, on the surface of the Earth, sunlight is warm. Or, hell, that it's bright. The mere fact that the Sun causes daylight is proof positive.
Your opponents are not thinking. They cannot possibly be thinking. They have instead identified you as belonging to the Other Team. Since Their Team is Right, the Other Team is Wrong. They cannot be engaging in intellectual debate with you - their perspective on "debate" is a clash of ideologies, not facts and evidence and explanatory theories. They've dissociated the conversation from reality, and therefore my advice for your own sanity would be to disengage from them.
Alternatively, continue to share with us their most outrageously wrong statements so we can all laugh and be rendered speachless by demonstrations of inconceivable idiocy. I'd find that entertaining.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 06-19-2012 9:41 AM Trixie has not replied

  
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