On The Matrix

crashfrog writes:

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At the time it was the best action movie in 10 years, and the best science-fiction since 2001: A Space Oddessy.

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You put the Matrix in front of Star Wars and Alien? I'd put it ahead of Terminator, but not those other two.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I can finally read a post. I haven't seen the latest yet so I've had to be careful not to have anything given away.Star Wars is not, IMNSHO, science fiction. It is good ol' space oprey. I love it. But it is not on a par with 2001 or the first Martix.(well, ok it is SF, but it isn't the same subgenre as the others)

Star Wars is a fantasy movie (because it's not about scientific themes). Alien is a horror movie. The Matrix was the best sci-fi movie since 2001 because it was the only one that didn't "dilute" the genre by hybridization. Or that's my opinion, anyway.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-14-2003]

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I thought the answer to that was obvious. A choice between one fake reality and another is no choice at all. For the choice to work, it has to be a real choice: fake dreamworld vs. actual reality.

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Ok, then if they choose to be in the real world there is no reason to actually honor that; they should just kill them there on the spot. Think of the all the resources they'd save if they didn't have to make such a huge defense/attack system.JustinC

Well, they do dump them down the sewers. In their condition that's next to fatal, isn't it?And despite what the Architect says, they're not very efficient at killing humans. The Sentinels have cutting lasers, but lasers don't make much of a wound channel. Other than that they don't seem to have weapons except for tentacles and other manipulators.But larger than that, I think that the choice has to be real. Not that there's any physical way they could know, but I think there has to be a Zion for the Matrix to exist. There has to be hope for escapees, or again, it's not a real choice.

ok... so my brother is the physicist... but he was telling me about carbon nano tubes that are incredibly strong, and once they are manufactured better, and cheaper things like an elevator to space would be feasible...any truth in this?

yea, I just got home from seeing the 3rd one. I have that unsatisfied feeling too. It may take me awhile to sort out why.

It is true that actuators (artificial muscles if you will) based on carbon nanotubes can exert more strain than equally sized human muscle. These actuators, however, haven't yet attained the necessary sizes and still need a certain environment (liquid electrolyte) to functions.
Fabric based on spun nanotubes has been demonstrated to have superb mechanical stability (Baughman et al. Nature 2003 IIRC). However, the fabric is still miles away from making it into an application (bullet proof vest etc.).
The idea of building space elevators using cables spun from nanotubes is a bit exaggerated IMHO. I don't think that you can just take the properties a material has at a relatively microscopic level and extrapolate to a few thousand meters.
The space elevator, so it seems to me, is a marketing scam to receive more funding for carbon nanotube research (which BTW is really interesting).
regards

http://abcnews.go.com/...ent/US/matrixgospel_030514_csm.html

crashfrog writes:

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Well, they do dump them down the sewers.

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Why on earth would they do that? According to the original Matrix, they recycle the dead to feed the living. Knowing that the ranks of Zion come from the individuals who "opt out" of the system, why on earth would they ever get rid of a body but rather immediately send it out for recycling?

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There has to be hope for escapees, or again, it's not a real choice.

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Why? It could quite easily be like Sanctuary in the movie version of Logan's Run (the book actually has Sanctuary existing, Logan and Jessica make it, and a crisis happens that forces Logan back to earth for the sequel, Logan's World.) The choice is real: The matrix is not reality, but there is nobody there on the other side for you to turn to. If you ever manage to be noticed by the Powers that Be (C) that you don't believe in the matrix, you are marked for destruction. So, you are left with a more frightening choice: Do you die for the truth?In my mind, this makes for a much more complex dilemma for Neo. Since the first matrix was a failure since it made life too easy for humans, does Neo convert the current Matrix into the previous one, knowing that it will most likely lead to the extermination of everyone within it? He has the power for he is the One, but does he use it? Absolute power, after all. How will he behave?And if they're going to make it a long movie, they could make the Oracle or perhaps Seriph be an actual machine who finds Neo and the others, they are the very first ones out of the matrix, they are nutured until they can find a way to shut down the matrix and release all the people within.In some sense, this would make a lot of the two threads identical...there would be a "Zion," but it could conceivably be much smaller in scope and would require the assistance of a resistance in the machines. Given the back story that they made in the Animatrix, and assuming they had the idea behind "Rise of the Machines" before they made the first movie, they could have done this with just a little bit of tweaking in the first and then making the next two movies being the organization of the resistance outside the matrix and the final battle. I admit, that's sorta the same plot development of the original Star Wars trilogy, but it works.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

TheoMorphic responds to me about fullerenes and related materials allowing for a structure that extends for miles into the atmosphere.At this point, that isn't feasible. Already one of the biggest problems with skyscrapers is wind. Quite a lot of structural engineering needs to be done to keep the tallest buildings from being destroyed by hurricane force winds...and that's only 1,000 feet in the air. The jet stream, for example, is over 70 knots...and that's constantly.Now, obviously there is a way to do it. Mt. Everest, for example, is five miles high so there is necessarily a way to make something that tall that can survive the environmental issues. And with the machines essentially controlling the entire surface of the earth, there should be a way for them to do this. Though, I have some question as to what this would render the earth looking like. It would require a significant amount of solar surface and I don't think a single installation on top of Mt. Everest would do it. To suck up that much material from the crust might cause extensive flooding. But, since this is supposed to be set far in the future, perhaps they have mined the moon or brought in asteroids for material.But then again, I am not a materials engineer, so all of this is speculation on my point.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

That's no choice at all, don't you think?I think the Brothers W are going to lengths behind the scenes in order to make the point that it has to be a real choice. Never mind how you would know that rejecting the Matrix sends you to the wood chipper. (I think the W Bros are of the opinion that there's a trancesndant reality behind the real world, too. I'll try and support that from the work, if you want.)I think that you're right about Zion, though. They're getting machine help, somehow. Besides the "dumb" machines that run the environment, I mean. After all each Zion is founded with machine help. And it serves their purposes to have all the humans in one little rat-nest, don't you think?(I wish I knew the exact size of the Matrix. I get the implication from the movies that it's not actually the whole Earth, but rather one city. Smith says "billions" in the first movie (I think?) but there can't be that many people actually in the Matrix.)

If it's just the size of a city, then the movie has alot of parellels with "Dark City".Also, I'm not sure I get this whole choice deal. How do they choose? I thought they either rejected or accepted the Matrix. If they reject it, then they should be killed. Atleast that's how I'm looking at it; I'm probably wrong though.

The Matrix is Hollywood. You're bound to find kaboodles of scientific flaws all the way through it. I've only seen the first movie, and found it quite enjoyable; besides which I'll have to agree with huffzone on its parallels with certain elements of Christianity. You all know me - absolutely saturated with Christian/creationist literature, and whenever I watch the Matrix I get this eerie feeling that some of the lines have been copied straight from my worldview. Every now and then we'll break off watching to give each other knowing glances. If anyone wants examples of those similarities, just ask...BTW: Star Wars is still classified as science fiction, and it's still better than the Matrix.

crashfrog responds to me:

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So, you are left with a more frightening choice: Do you die for the truth?

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That's no choice at all, don't you think?

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Not at all. It's how martyrs get made. It isn't a very nice choice, but it's still a choice: Stand up to your principles knowing that you'll probably never get to see them realized or submit to the authority and the lies it espouses.That's 1984. Winston has the choice between defiance, insisting that 2 + 2 = 4 no matter how much Big Brother says it isn't, and submission to the State. And when he is finally faced with the ultimate test of that choice, he breaks.But what would happen if Winston could break out of Miniluv?

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I think the Brothers W are going to lengths behind the scenes in order to make the point that it has to be a real choice.

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I know. But just because one of the choices leads to seeming instant destruction, that doesn't mean it isn't a real choice. That's the gift of the Oracle: She understands the value of a choice and she has made hers.In a sense, it becomes a parable about the bundle of sticks. Each one is easily broken, but bundled together they become a strong force. The problem is finding all those others who have also made the same choice and binding them together so that the machines will not be able to destroy them.

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Never mind how you would know that rejecting the Matrix sends you to the wood chipper.

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Same way one finds out about the matrix. You can survive for a while when you realize that you're just a brain in a vat. In fact, if you never do anything differently than you normally would, you'd probably live a long and happy life. But if you start to take advantage of that, the agents notice and track you down. You're forced to live a life on the run and when they find you, they destroy you. So, the story goes around among the survivors, an underground develops, etc., etc.One of the questions never answered is how Neo came to know about the matrix in the first place.

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(I wish I knew the exact size of the Matrix. I get the implication from the movies that it's not actually the whole Earth, but rather one city. Smith says "billions" in the first movie (I think?) but there can't be that many people actually in the Matrix.)

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Well, in the second movie, he ends up in a mansion on the top of some mountain.I saw it as some sort of variation of The Talisman where the world of the matrix was overlapped in some way over the real world. The City was a significant concentration...a local power station of bodies. Other body centers would have other Cities.And if I recall correctly, Zion has a quarter of a million people ("A Sentinel for every man, woman, and child in Zion. That sounds *exactly* like the thinking of a machine to me.") While it's true that a significant number of people, if not most, in Zion are natural born, I think it's safe to say that the number of pod born make up a small fraction of those who are actually in there. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a billion people in the Matrix.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!