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Author Topic:   The Power of Belief
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 1 of 61 (666142)
06-22-2012 7:27 AM


What is the power and extent of the effect of positive thinking on your reality?
It is clear to me that if I believe something with enough conviction that I can make it so. If I believe that I can fly it does not mean that I can jump from the building and fly with my arms. However, if I believe it with enough conviction then it does mean that I will eventually figure out how to build a plane. Conversely, if I believe that there is no way to fly then it is unlikely that I will ever build a plane. I am not suggesting that my belief in being able to fly has any effect on the laws of aerodynamics but it does effect the chances of the plane being built.
Two people are diagnosed with cancer and told they have only months to live. One of them spirals down in a cloud of depression and dies within a couple of months. The other goes into overdrive of positive thinking and attacks his illness with every fibre of his being and lives for another 10 yrs. Is this a contrived example or do things like this actually happen?
How would you define the extent of your ability to effect the nature of your reality simply by adjusting your opinion of it?
I envision this topic being promoted in the faith and belief forum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Panda, posted 06-22-2012 1:06 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 06-22-2012 1:36 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 06-22-2012 5:19 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-23-2012 9:39 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 47 by 1.61803, posted 07-03-2012 4:55 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 07-09-2012 1:05 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 10 of 61 (666200)
06-24-2012 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Panda
06-22-2012 1:06 PM


Re: Connected
Are you suggesting that there is an inevitability to achieving something if you wish hard enough for it?
That enough commitment will guarantee a particular result?
No. Nothing as strong as 'inevitability' and you have to do more than wish for it. I am not saying that anything is immediately possible. Obviously not everything that we can imagine doing is possible to do, right now. But what is completely and eternally impossible to do?
Down at the obvious end of the scale, my confidence in my ability to do a thing can have a large impact on my actual ability to do a thing. Say there is a tree to be climbed and 2 guys to climb it. One of them scurries up and down the tree no problem. The other is afraid of heights, makes it half way up and then falls because he is racked with fear. The successful climber succeeded solely because of his confidence in his ability. The crippled guy failed because of his lack of confidence.
At the other end of the scale, say we wanted to eradicate all of the armies in the world. Impossible right? Now if every person in the world decided that they wanted to eradicate all of the armies would it still be impossible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Panda, posted 06-22-2012 1:06 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Panda, posted 06-24-2012 8:24 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 11 of 61 (666201)
06-24-2012 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
06-22-2012 1:36 PM


Thanks for the reply Modulus, much food for thought.
I'd like to point out the curious term 'your reality'. I don't have a reality. I have a model of reality. Reality is just what is and this cannot be altered based on my opinion of it.
There is the set of all possible realities. The one that you inhabit is, to some degree, dependant on your state of mind. You are able to take actions that will change your future reality. There are limits to what you can do but are there limits to what can be done? I want to say that you can't do everything but everything can be done and it all starts with, and is dependant on, the thought that you can do it.
Flying to the moon was impossible for Jules Verne but it wasn't impossible and didn't he have something to do with somebody actually getting there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 06-22-2012 1:36 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 06-24-2012 9:50 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-24-2012 4:23 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 12 of 61 (666202)
06-24-2012 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
06-22-2012 5:19 PM


Religion's claims are mostly about achievements that cannot be empirically verified.
I am only talking about real things but I would include the intangible benefits of religious belief in a list of real things.

This message is a reply to:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 13 of 61 (666203)
06-24-2012 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
06-23-2012 9:39 AM


I believe with total conviction that this post will persuade you that you're wrong.
Fucking brilliant! One of us must not be a true believer.
No, there are lots of loop holes in this theory but I believe that they can all be closed by adjusting my perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-23-2012 9:39 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 18 of 61 (666235)
06-24-2012 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Panda
06-24-2012 8:24 AM


Re: Connected
Well, since I am not eternal, that seems an irrelevant question.
Let me put it this way. If enough people believe that some particular thing is possible and continue to work toward it's realization until they achieve success, anything is possible.
Does the fact that it is unfalsifiable make it a fallacy or just useless or both?
What would you have said if the climber with vertigo had successfully climbed the tree?
I would say that his confidence in his ability was up to the task.
What would you have said if the confident climber had fallen from the tree?
I would say "Ooh fuck, that must have hurt!" and also that it wouldn't serve as a good example for what I am trying to flesh out.
(Foolishly he uses a math analogy) If you were trying to write an equation to define the extent of all possible realities, what part would a person's attitude take in it? How much can your level of conviction expand the sphere of all possible realities?
There is a bit of an articulation problem here on my part. I don't mean making things that are actually impossible possible. I mean making things that we perceive as impossible possible. (ABE; is this dualism?) The possibility of the thing relies on your participation. It is your belief in the thing that moves it from impossible to possible.
I think that the problem with your theory is that it doesn't make any real predictions and it is unfalsifiable.
At best you are left with the vague claim that a confident attitude might have a positive (but unspecific) affect on some aspect of your life.
Yeah 'theory' is way too strong a word. Notion is probably more accurate.
I see that it is a vague claim but also that there is a real and tangible effect on our reality caused solely by our attitude towards it. How big is that effect?
tbh: I am having trouble differentiating between your idea and confirmation bias.
So am I.
Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Panda, posted 06-24-2012 8:24 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Panda, posted 06-25-2012 4:50 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 19 of 61 (666236)
06-24-2012 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
06-24-2012 9:50 AM


The one (reality) I think I inhabit is dependent on my state of mind. The one I actually inhabit is completely independent of my state of mind.
Isn't that dualism?
You can't change the future. It's as impossible as changing the past.
All you can do is take actions that will alter your predictions about the future.
That is probably another topic but interesting. What do you mean?
I point back at some of the potential counter examples I raised before: FTL, perpetual motion and seeing bones under skin and flesh.
FTL and PM are examples of things that we perceive to be impossible now. There are good indications that they will always be impossible but we are not certain are we? Why were so many physicists interested in the speedy Italian neutrinos?
This is in contrast to your OP
I should back track on my statement "It is clear to me that if I believe something with enough conviction that I can make it so.". See my reply to Panda. (ABE; although it seems to have been true for me. It has a lot to do with what I actually believe with conviction. As per Panda, it may just be confirmation bias.)
quote:
If enough people believe that some particular thing is possible and continue to work toward it's realization until they achieve success, anything is possible.
You agree that there is some utility to belief. What are it's limits?
Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 06-24-2012 9:50 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 06-25-2012 9:24 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 20 of 61 (666237)
06-24-2012 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-24-2012 4:23 PM


If you want to go to the moon, you have to inspire others to self-confidence and confidence in you. You have to be a Kennedy - or a Hitler.
Yes I take your point but see my other replies.
And just look at what Hitler acheived by convincing people to agree with him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-24-2012 4:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 06-25-2012 1:51 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 21 of 61 (666240)
06-25-2012 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
06-24-2012 9:50 AM


In as much as your life is a series of moments that you perceive, isn't your attitude toward it significantly important?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 06-24-2012 9:50 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 22 of 61 (666241)
06-25-2012 12:35 AM


This may seem like an off shoot but why are there no big leaps in this progression of 1 mile times? Are we at the end of the progression? When will we be at the end?
quote:
The first world record in the mile for men (athletics) was recognized by the International Amateur Athletics Federation, now known as the International Association of Athletics Federations, in 1913.
To June 21, 2009, the IAAF has ratified 32 world records in the event.[5]
Time Auto Athlete Nationality Date Venue
4:14.4 John Paul Jones United States 31 May 1913[5] Allston, Mass.
4:12.6 Norman Taber United States 16 July 1915[5] Allston, Mass.
4:10.4 Paavo Nurmi Finland 23 August 1923[5] Stockholm
4:09.2 Jules Ladoumgue France 4 October 1931[5] Paris
4:07.6 Jack Lovelock New Zealand 15 July 1933[5] Princeton, N.J.
4:06.8 Glenn Cunningham United States 16 June 1934[5] Princeton, N.J.
4:06.4 Sydney Wooderson United Kingdom 28 August 1937[5] Motspur Park
4:06.2 Gunder Hgg Sweden 1 July 1942[5] Gteborg
4:06.2 Arne Andersson Sweden 10 July 1942[5] Stockholm
4:04.6 Gunder Hgg Sweden 4 September 1942[5] Stockholm
4:02.6 Arne Andersson Sweden 1 July 1943[5] Gteborg
4:01.6 Arne Andersson Sweden 18 July 1944[5] Malm
4:01.4 Gunder Hgg Sweden 17 July 1945[5] Malm
3:59.4 Roger Bannister United Kingdom 6 May 1954[5] Oxford
3:58.0 John Landy Australia 21 June 1954[5] Turku
3:57.2 Derek Ibbotson United Kingdom 19 July 1957[5] London
3:54.5 Herb Elliott Australia 6 August 1958[5] Santry, Dublin
3:54.4 Peter Snell New Zealand 27 January 1962[5] Wanganui
3:54.1 3:54.04 Peter Snell New Zealand 17 November 1964[5] Auckland
3:53.6 Michel Jazy France 9 June 1965[5] Rennes
3:51.3 Jim Ryun United States 17 July 1966[5] Berkeley, Cal.
3:51.1 Jim Ryun United States 23 June 1967[5] Bakersfield, Cal.
3:51.0 Filbert Bayi Tanzania 17 May 1975[5] Kingston
3:49.4 John Walker New Zealand 12 August 1975[5] Gteborg
3:49.0 3:48.95 Sebastian Coe United Kingdom 17 July 1979[5] Oslo
3:48.8 Steve Ovett United Kingdom 1 July 1980[5] Oslo
3:48.53 Sebastian Coe United Kingdom 19 August 1981[5] Zrich
3:48.40 Steve Ovett United Kingdom 26 August 1981[5] Koblenz
3:47.33 Sebastian Coe United Kingdom 28 August 1981[5] Bruxelles
3:46.32 Steve Cram United Kingdom 27 July 1985[5] Oslo
3:44.39 Noureddine Morceli Algeria 5 September 1993[5] Rieti
3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj Morocco 7 July 1999[5] Rome

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 06-25-2012 5:13 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 28 of 61 (666336)
06-26-2012 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Panda
06-25-2012 4:50 AM


Re: Connected
I don't see a group of 10000 people being able to teach a goldfish to fly a jet - however much they are convinced that they can succeed.
I don't see 10000 people believing that they can teach a goldfish to fly a jet although I have heard that they are good learners. Contrast that with 10000 people believing that they can build a quantum computer. You would say that the quantum computer is either possible or impossible regardless of what anybody believes about it's possibility. I am saying that the realization of a quantum computer is, in fact, impossible if no one believes it enough to make it happen. The quantum computer must first exist in someone's imagination before it can exist in reality.
Yes.
You are standing under the tree waiting for the confident climber to succeed so that you can point at him and say "See? I was correct!" - while ignoring him when he falls.
Definitely confirmation bias.
Or I am waiting to see if he falls to determine his level of confidence. I guess I would need a corroborating method to determine his confidence level before the climb.
imh: something is either possible or it is not - but you are not likely to achieve the possible if you don't try.
But you can also achieve the possible if you don't try
Sure you can fall out of bed without trying or discover x-rays while looking for something else. I am not saying that nothing will happen if no one believes it.
If someone tries to do something, then that 'something' is more likely to happen - regardless of their confidence.
How many things do you try to do with absolutely no belief that you can succeed?
But a confident person might spend longer trying to do that 'something' - increasing their chances of success.
Exactly. It's all just a crap shoot and your belief increases your odds of success. Lots of belief=lots of increase.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Panda, posted 06-25-2012 4:50 AM Panda has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 29 of 61 (666338)
06-26-2012 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
06-25-2012 9:24 AM


Just because I am identifying two things, it does not make it dualism.
I am identifying a model of reality that exists within my brain, which is used to make decisions. This is in contrast to actual reality which is completely independent of the flawed model I have of it in my brain.
You are identifying 2 states of existence. The one that you think that you inhabit and the one that you do inhabit. Is that not the same as thinking that you exist spiritually as well as physically?
We cannot know for certain what is impossible, but I think it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that there are some things we can imagine, even believe in, which are in fact prohibited by the fundamental way in which reality operates.
Absolutely but you dont believe in things that you also believe are impossible?
A bit of an epiphany here. Is it the possibility of a thing that makes you believe in it?
One might be able to reduce x, partially, by fostering a strong belief in your capacity to perform at k.
However, if p < k and x=0 then no amount of extra belief is going to cause you to succeed.
Beautifully concise.
Is it significant that your belief is part of the variable that includes gravity and oxygen content?
In as much as your life is a series of moments that you perceive, isn't your attitude toward it significantly important?
Important to whom, and why do you ask?
Important to you.
If you choose to believe something because it makes you feel better, hasn't that belief altered your reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 06-25-2012 9:24 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 06-26-2012 10:31 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 31 of 61 (666491)
06-27-2012 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Modulous
06-26-2012 10:31 AM


Re: The treachery of models
Magritte is identifying two things. The pipe, and a picture of the pipe. He asserts that the picture of a pipe is not itself a pipe.
I'm not suggesting that the model of reality exists spiritually. It exists physically - as a result of certain brain structures.
Yes OK it is not dualism.
Is it the possibility of a thing that makes you believe in it?
No, it's your personal assessment of the possibility of a thing that makes you believe in it. Your assessment may be erroneous.
OK, good distinction but our assessments are often correct and when they are not, we correct them and so the erroneous belief does not last and we get better at making assessments.
Is it significant that your belief is part of the variable that includes gravity and oxygen content?
No, it was just to make it simpler to write it out. I just lumped all variables into a 'supervariable'.
Sure but where else where you going to put it? My point is that it is one of the variables.
If you choose to believe something because it makes you feel better, hasn't that belief altered your reality?
I would say it has altered your model of reality. The reality that you inhabit has not been altered (other than say, your brain).
If I look at a pipe, the image of that pipe in my head is not the same thing as an image of the pipe on a piece of paper.
I am the observer. The image in my head may be flawed and require adjustment but as far as I am concerned, it equates with reality. It must for the world to be rational. Fortunately, it usually does....at least as far as I can tell. In other words, my perception of reality is all that I have to go on. This is what I mean by your reality. I appreciate the distinction that you are making but which reality are we concerned with? We want our model to match as closely as possible and we constantly adjust it when we believe that it is necessary. Even though it may be flawed it is the only one we have.
This point is more important with regard to something like a belief in the afterlife. That belief, true or false, can have a very real and tangible affect on your existence. If you believe that you will be reunited with your loved ones and this belief causes you to be a happier person then you are, in fact, a happier person. Your belief has changed both your model of reality and the other one.
Assume for a moment then that FTL travel is possible. If enough people work toward achieving it then we will, no doubt, discover it. If no one believes that FTL travel is possible and no one works toward it then we will be far less likely to discover it as you and Panda both point out. These are two massively different possible futures with belief as the main variable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 06-26-2012 10:31 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 06-28-2012 8:35 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 32 of 61 (666492)
06-27-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Huntard
06-25-2012 5:13 PM


Hey Huntard,
No matter how hard you train, and how perfect your genes are, no one will ever, ever, ever run the mile in under 2 minutes. It would have to take significant enhancing technologies (be they genetic or purely technical) for this to be possible.
You see how you offered 2 potential solutions to something you just said was impossible. That is the start of those solutions coming into existence.

This message is a reply to:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 35 of 61 (666614)
06-29-2012 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Modulous
06-28-2012 8:35 AM


The importance of optimism
Then I'm not sure why you raise that point. We are certainly in agreement that it is a variable - it's just not particularly significant that both the level of belief you have and the local gravity are variables.
I find it to be at least interesting that one's belief can be as influential on the possibility (abe;probability) of a thing as gravity. Seems a little unscientific.
I am the observer. The image in my head may be flawed and require adjustment but as far as I am concerned, it equates with reality.
If you are going to stand a chance at learning how to compensate for your cognitive shortcomings, you'll have to change this mental equivalence you have set up between 'the way things seem' and 'the way things are'.
What cognitive shortcomings?!?
As with any reproduction, there are imperfections. I would say that we are actually really good at spotting them. Not perfect but pretty good. It is a constant process of reassessment. At least it is for some of us.
How many of the things that you see on your desk are not really there? What percentage of the things that you believe to be true are not true?
The point is that when our model does not correspond well with reality - we may harbour beliefs about what is possible that are false. And no amount of fervent belief is going to get us to our goal if it is not possible in reality.
I think that I agreed with that already. My point is that no matter how possible something might be we may never get there if we don't believe that we can.
I'd say that it's almost tautological that by changing your opinion of your model of reality, you are having an effect on the nature of your model of reality.
Consider the depressed individual. Suffering a miserable existence that is miserable because they believe it to be so. I know that I have thought my way out of a state of depression. Certainly not true for all cases of depression but the way that you think can physically change the balance of chemicals in your brain. Physically change 'your reality'. This is more than tautological.
If I could just change the frame of reference a bit. Have a listen to this interview with Neil Degrasse Tyson if you like. It starts around 29:45. He speaks about the importance of vision and it's cascading effects.
Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 06-28-2012 8:35 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 06-29-2012 8:44 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 38 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2012 8:03 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
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