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Author Topic:   Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1561 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 80 (666076)
06-21-2012 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
06-21-2012 4:59 PM


Not Dropped - Picked
quote:
Are we going to talk about the parts of the Law that were dropped as Christianity developed?
Christianity didn't drop any laws. The OT laws were a part of a nation's legal system. Christianity didn't and still doesn't have a legal system.

The Jewish Christians were still bound by the OT laws and the Jewish laws. The Non-Jewish Christians were never bound by the OT laws or the Jewish laws, so there was nothing to drop.

Jewish Christians died out and the Non-Jewish Christians were left to continue Christianity. If these Non-Jewish Christians decided to follow any "laws" from the OT, then they chose the "laws" they wanted to follow, they didn't drop anything.

Christians just have rules for behavior.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 06-21-2012 4:59 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 17 of 80 (666077)
06-21-2012 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
06-21-2012 4:59 PM


Jon writes:

Are we going to talk about the parts of the Law that were dropped as Christianity developed?

In a sense I don't see any of the laws being dropped. It is just that all of the laws are incorporated into Christ's message of love of God and love of neighbour.

If someone is Jewish and believe that the OT laws should apply to them then that is what they should do. Again as Paul says:

quote:
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

If you believe that God desires that you don't eat pork then don't eat it. It isn't specifically about what we do or don't do. It is all about loving God and neighbour. If we truly love God and neighbour then then there is no need for any shalls and shall nots as we will instinctively do what is right.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 06-21-2012 4:59 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 80 (666160)
06-22-2012 7:31 PM


Still using nitpicking to avoid the subject I see.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 6:16 AM Jon has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1561 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 19 of 80 (666172)
06-23-2012 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
06-22-2012 7:31 PM


Dropped Laws
Since you feel that OT laws were dropped by Christians, please present your argument. List the OT laws you feel were dropped by Christians, when they were dropped and why, and provide support for your position.

The idea of the word drop as you're using it means to give up, abandon, or discontinue. After the failure of the Jewish Revolt that destroyed the temple, surviving Jewish Christians may have abandoned actions that might divulge their Jewish heritage, but their actions didn't affect the OT Laws on the books for the Jews.

Before 175 BCE intellectual Jewish reformists wanted to improve Judaism.
Excerpt from History of the Jews by Paul Johnson 1987:

They embarked on the first Biblical criticism: the Law, as now written, was not very old and certainly did not go back to Moses. They argued that the original laws were far more universalistic. ...The reformers did not want to abolish the Law completely but to purge it of those elements which forbade participation in Greek culturefor instance, the ban on nudity, which kept pious Jews out of the gymnasium and stadiumand reduce it to its ethical core, so universalizing it.

Jewish reformists were working on adjusting the Jewish laws for Jews before Jesus was even born. IMO, adjusting laws as a civilization changes is pretty standard.

The only OT rules the Non-Jewish Christians were supposedly bound by were the rules given in Acts 15.

Abstain from:
(1) Eating food sacrificed to idols;
(2) Sexual immorality;
(3) Eating the meat of strangled animals; and
(4) Eating blood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 06-22-2012 7:31 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Jon, posted 06-23-2012 6:58 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 80 (666173)
06-23-2012 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by purpledawn
06-23-2012 6:16 AM


Re: Dropped Laws
The idea of the word drop as you're using it means to give up, abandon, or discontinue.

Again; you're just nitpicking. If I use the phrase 'made unnecessary', will you stop pretending you don't understand what I'm saying?

Jewish reformists were working on adjusting the Jewish laws for Jews before Jesus was even born.

So?

IMO, adjusting laws as a civilization changes is pretty standard.

Sure; and part of that 'adjustment' as the Jewish Jesus Movement developed into Gentile Christianity was the decision that all but the most basic and expected Laws were unnecessary.

The only OT rules the Non-Jewish Christians were supposedly bound by were the rules given in Acts 15.

Abstain from:
(1) Eating food sacrificed to idols;
(2) Sexual immorality;
(3) Eating the meat of strangled animals; and
(4) Eating blood.

And how many Christian sects still feel themselves bound by those last two?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 6:16 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:43 AM Jon has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 80 (666174)
06-23-2012 8:18 AM


Letter Of Law Became Intent Of Law
It was when, on the cross, that Jesus said, "It is finished" that the very heavy thick veil of the Holy of Holies in the Temple was torn open from top to bottom, indicative that Jehovah, god tore it open, ending the testament/dispensation/period of the Levitical priesthood. At at the moment when Jesus died, the animal sacrifices, the Levitical priesthood and the rest of the "letter" of the law ended. Jesus became the "sacrificial lamb of God," replacing all animal sacrifice for Jews and Gentiles alike. Thus the blood of Jesus cleanses ones who put their trust in it of all sin, as per the following NT texts:


    1. Matthew 26:28: This is my blood of the new testament, which was shed for the remission of sins.

    2. Romans 5:9: Being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    3. 1 Peter 1:18: You were not redeemed with corruptible things as silver and gold, but with the precious blood of Christ.

    4. 1 John 1:5-7): God is lightand the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

There are other texts when Paul said "There is one god and one mediator between God and man, man, Christ Jesus." (mediator=priest). Jesus alone mediates between God and man, ending the Levitical priesthood.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1561 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 80 (666178)
06-23-2012 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Jon
06-23-2012 6:58 AM


Re: Dropped Laws
quote:
Again; you're just nitpicking. If I use the phrase 'made unnecessary', will you stop pretending you don't understand what I'm saying?
Unnecessary for what? Present your argument.

Christians weren't required to follow the law to become Christians, therefore the laws weren't necessary for that purpose to begin with.

Jewish Christians were Christians because they believed Jesus was the Messiah and followed his teachings, not because they followed Jewish law. They were still bound by Jewish law because they were Jewish, but that wasn't part of being Christian. Non-Jewish Christians weren't bound by Jewish law because they weren't Jewish, but they were still Christians because of their belief. They had no OT laws to drop.

The rules they asked the Non-Jewish Christians to follow in Acts 15 were a means to make it easier for fellowship between the groups since the Jewish Christians still had to follow Jewish Law.

According to the OT stories, God did not become the God of Abraham because Abraham followed laws. The laws were given because they believed in God. They were a nation that needed laws to govern them.

I've already made it clear I'm not talking about justification for becoming a Christian or for being accepted by God. That was Paul's point. Don't use the laws as justification, OT or otherwise. He didn't do away with anything, just put them in their proper place.

quote:
Sure; and part of that 'adjustment' as the Jewish Jesus Movement developed into Gentile Christianity was the decision that all but the most basic and expected Laws were unnecessary.
Unnecessary for what? Also some support would be nice.

quote:
And how many Christian sects still feel themselves bound by those last two?
If a group of Non-Jewish Christians entertained a group of Jewish Christians who still ate kosher, would they serve kosher or expect the Jews to deal with it? My guess is they would serve kosher if they understood anything that Paul taught.

Once the Jewish Christians died away, there would be no conflict to avoid. The Non-Jewish Christians were no longer part of a Jewish community. That had nothing to do with Jesus or Paul.

So IMO, the last two rules would not be "necessary" as long as Non-Jewish Christians aren't fellowshipping around the food table with Jewish Christians. No blood pudding next to the veggie platter.

If all you're arguing is that the OT laws aren't necessary to be a Christian, I agree. But, then they never were. That's why I say there wasn't really anything to drop or "make" unnecessary. That doesn't make the OT laws null and void, it just makes them not applicable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Jon, posted 06-23-2012 6:58 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2012 2:41 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 06-23-2012 4:35 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 80 (666187)
06-23-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by purpledawn
06-23-2012 9:43 AM


Re: Dropped Laws
PD writes:

Jewish Christians were Christians because they believed Jesus was the Messiah and followed his teachings, not because they followed Jewish law. They were still bound by Jewish law because they were Jewish, but that wasn't part of being Christian. Non-Jewish Christians weren't bound by Jewish law because they weren't Jewish, but they were still Christians because of their belief. They had no OT laws to drop.

Not so, PD. The Jewish temple holy place was done away with as I said and the temple was destroyed shortly later, never to be rebuilt in this dispensation of Christianity.

Don't forget, Jesus and his apostles were all Jews. It was all of them, including Jesus, who never kept the letter of the law. Thus Jesus told the man healed of palsy from birth to pick up his bed and walk. Jewish Levitical law forbad that. It was Jesus and his apostles who did not wash their hands after plucking corn from the field, as required by Jewish Levitical law of the letterl

It was at Penticost when the Holy Spirit decended, entering the believer's body and being/heart/soul, awaiting that event, as Jesus had instructed. The intent of the law came into their being via the baptism of the Holy Ghost, i.e. being born from above/again.

When Nicodemus asked Jesus, in John, chapter 3, how he could enter into God's Kingdom, Jesus's answer was that Nicodemus, a morally righteous man, must be born again/from above, spiritually, i.e the new spiritual birth. This is what so many do not understand about that new birth including some who have accepted Jesus as savior. . Some who do this haven't a clue of what it means or what they did. Some do. Some do it simply to get someone off their backs, so to speak. It all depends on whether they receive him as savior (fire escape) or as both savior and lord/master, as is required.

Paul said somewhere, If any man be in Christ Jesus, he becomes a new creature/creation; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new. In other words, the sinful life passes away and one begins (I say begins) to be a better person as one grows from a babe in Christ to become a mature practicing believer, growing as one applies one's life to the Biblical principles.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:43 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:05 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 80 (666188)
06-23-2012 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by purpledawn
06-23-2012 9:43 AM


Re: Dropped Laws
Christianity began as a cult movement within Judaism. Jesus was a Jew. His direct followers were Jews. The whole concept of what Jesus was was entirely entrenched in a Jewish world view. He was the Messiah who was resurrected after being executed during the Passover; he offered spiritual reinterpretations of the Law; and so the list goes on.

The Jesus Movement was a Jewish movement for Jews. The new movement didn't become Christianity until it started to become populated with non-Jews. The abandonment of the necessity for keeping certain parts of the Law was part of the general movement away from the Jewish Jesus Movement to a more universal Christianity.

Did this not happen?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:43 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2012 6:11 PM Jon has responded
 Message 29 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:18 PM Jon has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 80 (666189)
06-23-2012 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
06-23-2012 4:35 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
Jon writes:

Christianity began as a cult movement within Judaism. Jesus was a Jew. His direct followers were Jews. The whole concept of what Jesus was was entirely entrenched in a Jewish world view. He was the Messiah who was resurrected after being executed during the Passover; he offered spiritual reinterpretations of the Law; and so the list goes on.
The Jesus Movement was a Jewish movement for Jews. The new movement didn't become Christianity until it started to become populated with non-Jews. The abandonment of the necessity for keeping certain parts of the Law was part of the general movement away from the Jewish Jesus Movement to a more universal Christianity.

It was more-so a God planned and God prophesied messianic movement designed by God to become a church era period of grace, calling out a bride/host of recipients of the gospel of Jesus, inclusive of Jews and Gentiles, to be assembled at resurrection day for messiah/christ Jesus to rule and reign with him over the nations for the messianic millenial kingdom located, at Jerusalem in Israel.

Jesus first offered the Jews, himself, as messiah/king. The rejected him so he then opened it up to both Jews and Gentiles. Of course he fore-knew that that would happen, Jehovah inspired the OT prophets to predict.

He then allowed the Romans and other Gentiles to destroy the Temple, kill and persecute the Jews, finally to be scattered to all nations until the times of the Gentiles would be fullfilled as Jesus predicted on the Mt of Olives to the deciples before he was crucified.

I well remember the signficant 1967 Six Day War when the returned Jews marched within the wall ruins of the of the old city to the Temple Mount, as was prophesied, for the first time after some 19 centuries of global dispersion.

John writes:

Did this not happen?

You're implication that the movement was spontaneous by happenstance is what I see as scripturally problematic. It is depiced in both OT prophecy and NT text that it was more-so a God planned/designed movement for his purpose alone.

You're right, in that, according to Paul, they were first called Christians at Antioch.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 06-23-2012 4:35 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 06-23-2012 6:39 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 27 by jar, posted 06-23-2012 6:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 80 (666191)
06-23-2012 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
06-23-2012 6:11 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
Save the nonsense for someone else, Buz.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2012 6:11 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 27 of 80 (666192)
06-23-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
06-23-2012 6:11 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
And I assume that for once you will present the chapter and verse specific to your alleged prophecies so that they can be examined?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2012 6:11 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1561 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 28 of 80 (666195)
06-23-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
06-23-2012 2:41 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
quote:
Not so, PD. The Jewish temple holy place was done away with as I said and the temple was destroyed shortly later, never to be rebuilt in this dispensation of Christianity. Not so, PD. The Jewish temple holy place was done away with as I said and the temple was destroyed shortly later, never to be rebuilt in this dispensation of Christianity.
I agree, the Jews supposedly couldn't do the sacrificial rituals after the destruction of the temple. That had nothing to do with Jesus though. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD stopped the sacrifices for lack of a place, not Jesus.

quote:
Don't forget, Jesus and his apostles were all Jews. It was all of them, including Jesus, who never kept the letter of the law. Thus Jesus told the man healed of palsy from birth to pick up his bed and walk. Jewish Levitical law forbad that. It was Jesus and his apostles who did not wash their hands after plucking corn from the field, as required by Jewish Levitical law of the letterl
Shammai and Hillel debated over the letter of the law and the spirit of the law long before Jesus came around. Also note some laws were part of the Oral Law or the "fence around the Torah". Show me the Scripture that supports these things you mention were part of the OT law. Hillel tended to win out. Supposedly Paul was also from the school of Hillel.

The Debate Over Jewish Law

Show me what laws you're talking about specifically. Going by the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law doesn't void or nullify the law.

quote:
It was at Penticost when the Holy Spirit decended, entering the believer's body and being/heart/soul, awaiting that event, as Jesus had instructed. The intent of the law came into their being via the baptism of the Holy Ghost, i.e. being born from above/again.
quote:
Paul said somewhere, If any man be in Christ Jesus, he becomes a new creature/creation; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new. In other words, the sinful life passes away and one begins (I say begins) to be a better person as one grows from a babe in Christ to become a mature practicing believer, growing as one applies one's life to the Biblical principles.
That still doesn't nullify or void the OT laws. If the intent came into their being then they should have no problem following the OT laws.

Changing one's behavior also doesn't nullify or void the OT laws. The person changed, not the OT laws.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 06-23-2012 2:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1561 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 29 of 80 (666197)
06-23-2012 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
06-23-2012 4:35 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
quote:
Christianity began as a cult movement within Judaism. Jesus was a Jew. His direct followers were Jews. The whole concept of what Jesus was was entirely entrenched in a Jewish world view. He was the Messiah who was resurrected after being executed during the Passover; he offered spiritual reinterpretations of the Law; and so the list goes on.

The Jesus Movement was a Jewish movement for Jews. The new movement didn't become Christianity until it started to become populated with non-Jews. The abandonment of the necessity for keeping certain parts of the Law was part of the general movement away from the Jewish Jesus Movement to a more universal Christianity.

Did this not happen?


Show some support. I've shown you the Jewish half of Christianity died out. The Jewish half followed the laws. The Non-Jewish half couldn't abandon what they didn't have.

I already said Christianity went to the Gentiles. Message 5


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 06-23-2012 4:35 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 06-23-2012 9:27 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 06-24-2012 12:47 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 30 of 80 (666198)
06-23-2012 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
06-23-2012 9:18 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
But the Jewish Christian cult did abandon much of the Law.

Peter and Paul are two great examples.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:18 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 6:33 PM jar has responded

  
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