The Power of Belief

What is the power and extent of the effect of positive thinking on your reality?It is clear to me that if I believe something with enough conviction that I can make it so. If I believe that I can fly it does not mean that I can jump from the building and fly with my arms. However, if I believe it with enough conviction then it does mean that I will eventually figure out how to build a plane. Conversely, if I believe that there is no way to fly then it is unlikely that I will ever build a plane. I am not suggesting that my belief in being able to fly has any effect on the laws of aerodynamics but it does effect the chances of the plane being built.Two people are diagnosed with cancer and told they have only months to live. One of them spirals down in a cloud of depression and dies within a couple of months. The other goes into overdrive of positive thinking and attacks his illness with every fibre of his being and lives for another 10 yrs. Is this a contrived example or do things like this actually happen?How would you define the extent of your ability to effect the nature of your reality simply by adjusting your opinion of it?I envision this topic being promoted in the faith and belief forum.

No. Nothing as strong as 'inevitability' and you have to do more than wish for it. I am not saying that anything is immediately possible. Obviously not everything that we can imagine doing is possible to do, right now. But what is completely and eternally impossible to do?Down at the obvious end of the scale, my confidence in my ability to do a thing can have a large impact on my actual ability to do a thing. Say there is a tree to be climbed and 2 guys to climb it. One of them scurries up and down the tree no problem. The other is afraid of heights, makes it half way up and then falls because he is racked with fear. The successful climber succeeded solely because of his confidence in his ability. The crippled guy failed because of his lack of confidence.At the other end of the scale, say we wanted to eradicate all of the armies in the world. Impossible right? Now if every person in the world decided that they wanted to eradicate all of the armies would it still be impossible?

Thanks for the reply Modulus, much food for thought. There is the set of all possible realities. The one that you inhabit is, to some degree, dependant on your state of mind. You are able to take actions that will change your future reality. There are limits to what you can do but are there limits to what can be done? I want to say that you can't do everything but everything can be done and it all starts with, and is dependant on, the thought that you can do it.Flying to the moon was impossible for Jules Verne but it wasn't impossible and didn't he have something to do with somebody actually getting there?

I am only talking about real things but I would include the intangible benefits of religious belief in a list of real things.

Fucking brilliant! One of us must not be a true believer.No, there are lots of loop holes in this theory but I believe that they can all be closed by adjusting my perspective.

Let me put it this way. If enough people believe that some particular thing is possible and continue to work toward it's realization until they achieve success, anything is possible.Does the fact that it is unfalsifiable make it a fallacy or just useless or both? I would say that his confidence in his ability was up to the task. I would say "Ooh fuck, that must have hurt!" and also that it wouldn't serve as a good example for what I am trying to flesh out.(Foolishly he uses a math analogy) If you were trying to write an equation to define the extent of all possible realities, what part would a person's attitude take in it? How much can your level of conviction expand the sphere of all possible realities?There is a bit of an articulation problem here on my part. I don't mean making things that are actually impossible possible. I mean making things that we perceive as impossible possible. (ABE; is this dualism?) The possibility of the thing relies on your participation. It is your belief in the thing that moves it from impossible to possible. Yeah 'theory' is way too strong a word. Notion is probably more accurate.I see that it is a vague claim but also that there is a real and tangible effect on our reality caused solely by our attitude towards it. How big is that effect? So am I.Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

Isn't that dualism? That is probably another topic but interesting. What do you mean? FTL and PM are examples of things that we perceive to be impossible now. There are good indications that they will always be impossible but we are not certain are we? Why were so many physicists interested in the speedy Italian neutrinos? I should back track on my statement "It is clear to me that if I believe something with enough conviction that I can make it so.". See my reply to Panda. (ABE; although it seems to have been true for me. It has a lot to do with what I actually believe with conviction. As per Panda, it may just be confirmation bias.)

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If enough people believe that some particular thing is possible and continue to work toward it's realization until they achieve success, anything is possible.

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You agree that there is some utility to belief. What are it's limits?Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

Yes I take your point but see my other replies.And just look at what Hitler acheived by convincing people to agree with him.

In as much as your life is a series of moments that you perceive, isn't your attitude toward it significantly important?

This may seem like an off shoot but why are there no big leaps in this progression of 1 mile times? Are we at the end of the progression? When will we be at the end?

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The first world record in the mile for men (athletics) was recognized by the International Amateur Athletics Federation, now known as the International Association of Athletics Federations, in 1913.

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To June 21, 2009, the IAAF has ratified 32 world records in the event.[5]
Time Auto Athlete Nationality Date Venue
4:14.4 John Paul Jones United States 31 May 1913[5] Allston, Mass.
4:12.6 Norman Taber United States 16 July 1915[5] Allston, Mass.
4:10.4 Paavo Nurmi Finland 23 August 1923[5] Stockholm
4:09.2 Jules Ladoumgue France 4 October 1931[5] Paris
4:07.6 Jack Lovelock New Zealand 15 July 1933[5] Princeton, N.J.
4:06.8 Glenn Cunningham United States 16 June 1934[5] Princeton, N.J.
4:06.4 Sydney Wooderson United Kingdom 28 August 1937[5] Motspur Park
4:06.2 Gunder Hgg Sweden 1 July 1942[5] Gteborg
4:06.2 Arne Andersson Sweden 10 July 1942[5] Stockholm
4:04.6 Gunder Hgg Sweden 4 September 1942[5] Stockholm
4:02.6 Arne Andersson Sweden 1 July 1943[5] Gteborg
4:01.6 Arne Andersson Sweden 18 July 1944[5] Malm
4:01.4 Gunder Hgg Sweden 17 July 1945[5] Malm
3:59.4 Roger Bannister United Kingdom 6 May 1954[5] Oxford
3:58.0 John Landy Australia 21 June 1954[5] Turku
3:57.2 Derek Ibbotson United Kingdom 19 July 1957[5] London
3:54.5 Herb Elliott Australia 6 August 1958[5] Santry, Dublin
3:54.4 Peter Snell New Zealand 27 January 1962[5] Wanganui
3:54.1 3:54.04 Peter Snell New Zealand 17 November 1964[5] Auckland
3:53.6 Michel Jazy France 9 June 1965[5] Rennes
3:51.3 Jim Ryun United States 17 July 1966[5] Berkeley, Cal.
3:51.1 Jim Ryun United States 23 June 1967[5] Bakersfield, Cal.
3:51.0 Filbert Bayi Tanzania 17 May 1975[5] Kingston
3:49.4 John Walker New Zealand 12 August 1975[5] Gteborg
3:49.0 3:48.95 Sebastian Coe United Kingdom 17 July 1979[5] Oslo
3:48.8 Steve Ovett United Kingdom 1 July 1980[5] Oslo
3:48.53 Sebastian Coe United Kingdom 19 August 1981[5] Zrich
3:48.40 Steve Ovett United Kingdom 26 August 1981[5] Koblenz
3:47.33 Sebastian Coe United Kingdom 28 August 1981[5] Bruxelles
3:46.32 Steve Cram United Kingdom 27 July 1985[5] Oslo
3:44.39 Noureddine Morceli Algeria 5 September 1993[5] Rieti
3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj Morocco 7 July 1999[5] Rome

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I don't see 10000 people believing that they can teach a goldfish to fly a jet although I have heard that they are good learners. Contrast that with 10000 people believing that they can build a quantum computer. You would say that the quantum computer is either possible or impossible regardless of what anybody believes about it's possibility. I am saying that the realization of a quantum computer is, in fact, impossible if no one believes it enough to make it happen. The quantum computer must first exist in someone's imagination before it can exist in reality. Or I am waiting to see if he falls to determine his level of confidence. I guess I would need a corroborating method to determine his confidence level before the climb. Sure you can fall out of bed without trying or discover x-rays while looking for something else. I am not saying that nothing will happen if no one believes it. How many things do you try to do with absolutely no belief that you can succeed? Exactly. It's all just a crap shoot and your belief increases your odds of success. Lots of belief=lots of increase.

You are identifying 2 states of existence. The one that you think that you inhabit and the one that you do inhabit. Is that not the same as thinking that you exist spiritually as well as physically? Absolutely but you dont believe in things that you also believe are impossible?A bit of an epiphany here. Is it the possibility of a thing that makes you believe in it? Beautifully concise.Is it significant that your belief is part of the variable that includes gravity and oxygen content? Important to you.If you choose to believe something because it makes you feel better, hasn't that belief altered your reality?

Yes OK it is not dualism. OK, good distinction but our assessments are often correct and when they are not, we correct them and so the erroneous belief does not last and we get better at making assessments. Sure but where else where you going to put it? My point is that it is one of the variables. If I look at a pipe, the image of that pipe in my head is not the same thing as an image of the pipe on a piece of paper.I am the observer. The image in my head may be flawed and require adjustment but as far as I am concerned, it equates with reality. It must for the world to be rational. Fortunately, it usually does....at least as far as I can tell. In other words, my perception of reality is all that I have to go on. This is what I mean by your reality. I appreciate the distinction that you are making but which reality are we concerned with? We want our model to match as closely as possible and we constantly adjust it when we believe that it is necessary. Even though it may be flawed it is the only one we have.This point is more important with regard to something like a belief in the afterlife. That belief, true or false, can have a very real and tangible affect on your existence. If you believe that you will be reunited with your loved ones and this belief causes you to be a happier person then you are, in fact, a happier person. Your belief has changed both your model of reality and the other one.Assume for a moment then that FTL travel is possible. If enough people work toward achieving it then we will, no doubt, discover it. If no one believes that FTL travel is possible and no one works toward it then we will be far less likely to discover it as you and Panda both point out. These are two massively different possible futures with belief as the main variable.

Hey Huntard, You see how you offered 2 potential solutions to something you just said was impossible. That is the start of those solutions coming into existence.

I find it to be at least interesting that one's belief can be as influential on the possibility (abe;probability) of a thing as gravity. Seems a little unscientific. What cognitive shortcomings?!?As with any reproduction, there are imperfections. I would say that we are actually really good at spotting them. Not perfect but pretty good. It is a constant process of reassessment. At least it is for some of us.How many of the things that you see on your desk are not really there? What percentage of the things that you believe to be true are not true? I think that I agreed with that already. My point is that no matter how possible something might be we may never get there if we don't believe that we can. Consider the depressed individual. Suffering a miserable existence that is miserable because they believe it to be so. I know that I have thought my way out of a state of depression. Certainly not true for all cases of depression but the way that you think can physically change the balance of chemicals in your brain. Physically change 'your reality'. This is more than tautological.If I could just change the frame of reference a bit. Have a listen to this interview with Neil Degrasse Tyson if you like. It starts around 29:45. He speaks about the importance of vision and it's cascading effects.Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.