Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-20-2019 8:43 PM
34 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 849,926 Year: 4,963/19,786 Month: 1,085/873 Week: 441/376 Day: 72/46 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
456Next
Author Topic:   Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 80 (666212)
06-24-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
06-23-2012 9:18 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
The Non-Jewish half couldn't abandon what they didn't have.

The fact that a non-Jewish half even existed is what this thread is all about!


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2012 9:18 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-25-2012 2:31 PM Jon has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 80 (666220)
06-24-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
06-23-2012 9:27 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
quote:
But the Jewish Christian cult did abandon much of the Law.

Peter and Paul are two great examples.


Show us that Paul or Peter followed the OT Laws any less than other Jews or Jewish Christians of the time.

Romans 3:31
...Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 06-23-2012 9:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 6:48 PM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 80 (666221)
06-24-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 6:33 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
They ate with non Jews, ate unclean foods.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 6:33 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 6:56 PM jar has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 34 of 80 (666222)
06-24-2012 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
06-24-2012 6:48 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
quote:
They ate with non Jews, ate unclean foods.
Scripture please!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 6:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 7:10 PM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 80 (666223)
06-24-2012 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 6:56 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
Scripture shouldn't be needed if you've read the Bible but consider Acts 10. Peter goes into the house of Cornelius.

Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles often went in and associated with non-Jews.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 6:56 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 7:22 PM jar has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 36 of 80 (666224)
06-24-2012 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
06-24-2012 7:10 PM


Associating with Gentiles
Associating with Non-Jews is not part of the OT Laws. Message 13

What you never knew about the Pharisees
This attitude caused Pharisees from the school of Shammai to hate all Gentiles, and left them with little regard even for Jews who didnt follow them. (In one case, nearly attacking the sage Hillel for bringing a sacrifice to the Temple on a day they disapproved of.) In the days of Shammai, so passionate was their hatred of Gentiles that around 10 AD, Shammai passed 18 edicts specifically meant to force separation between Jews and Gentiles. The specifics of all these edicts have been lost, but among them was a prohibition of entering the house of a Gentile lest a Jew thereby become defiled, and even eating with or purchasing food from a Gentile was forbidden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 7:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 7:45 PM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 80 (666226)
06-24-2012 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 7:22 PM


Re: Associating with Gentiles
But keeping Kosher is, and that means not eating off plates a non-Jew used, not using utensils that an non-Jew used.

The key is not specific OT laws (unless you want to be pedantic) but is explicit in many Old Testament stories. The point of Ruth is that she was NOT Jewish; the point of the Good Samaritan was that he was NOT Jewish. And the idea that Jews and thus Jewish behavior and customs were different and specific goes somewhat further back than 10AD; rather it goes to the time of the exile to Babylon and the need to create a Jewish identity and even earlier to the creation of "Israel".

Peter, Paul and others were trying to market a new franchise, and to do that they had to adopt the customs of their prospective converts. Even the idea of marketing a new NON-Jewish Jewish sect was new and the idea of letting in men in particular without the requirement of an initiation rite was a total change in orientation.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 7:22 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 8:36 PM jar has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 38 of 80 (666227)
06-24-2012 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
06-24-2012 7:45 PM


Re: Associating with Gentiles
Support please!

Plates could be washed other than clay. Leviticus 11


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 7:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 8:59 PM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 80 (666228)
06-24-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 8:36 PM


Re: Associating with Gentiles
Some plates could be washed. But unless done by someone who understands the requirements it is not Kosher. And of course, any clay pot where an unclean critter has touched and anything that touches or is in such an unclean pot is unclean. That also applies to how food was prepared and stored, cooked, handled, what ingredients are included.

Leviticus 11:

quote:
29 Of the animals that move along the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, 30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon. 31 Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. 32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. 33 If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. 34 Any food you are allowed to eat that has come into contact with water from any such pot is unclean, and any liquid that is drunk from such a pot is unclean. 35 Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean.

The support is common sense. The Laws were detailed, often arbitrary, sometimes contradictory and whether the source was Biblical, or Rabbinical or simply custom, complex and obscure.

When you entered a non-Jewish hose there was simply no way to know the history of the food offered.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2012 8:36 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2012 7:15 AM jar has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 40 of 80 (666251)
06-25-2012 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
06-24-2012 8:59 PM


Difficult But Not Forbidden
quote:
Some plates could be washed. But unless done by someone who understands the requirements it is not Kosher. And of course, any clay pot where an unclean critter has touched and anything that touches or is in such an unclean pot is unclean. That also applies to how food was prepared and stored, cooked, handled, what ingredients are included.
It may have been difficult to eat with Gentiles or to visit one, but it wasn't forbidden and since Shammai felt it necessary to make several decrees to keep Jews and Gentiles separated, the people must have overcome the difficulty. Message 36

quote:
The support is common sense. The Laws were detailed, often arbitrary, sometimes contradictory and whether the source was Biblical, or Rabbinical or simply custom, complex and obscure.

When you entered a non-Jewish hose there was simply no way to know the history of the food offered.


The support for your argument is not common sense because the Laws were detailed, often arbitrary, sometimes contradictory, complex and obscure. There were several sects with their interpretations of the OT Laws and at least two schools of thought.

You stated in Message 30, that

jar writes:

But the Jewish Christian cult did abandon much of the Law.

Peter and Paul are two great examples.

But you haven't shown us that Paul or Peter followed the OT Laws any less than other Jews or Jewish Christians of their time.

There were Hellenistic Jews before Jesus came. These Jews had largely abandoned much of the Torah in order to be "more accepted" in the Greek/Roman culture where they lived.

The Dispora
The vast majority of the Jews living in the Dispersion, however, were not Hebraists, but Hellenists. These were Jews who had conformed themselves to the Greek/Roman culture, and who had basically ceased being "Jewish" except in certain matters of faith. The Sadducees, for example, tended to be Hellenists, whereas the Pharisees were generally Hebraists.

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee. Acts 23:6

My position is that at the time of Jesus, Paul, and Peter; the OT Laws had no legal or binding force on Gentiles, Christian or otherwise. They had nothing to abandon. I don't see that Jewish Christians abandoned any OT Laws because of Jesus or Paul.

I don't see that Paul or Peter followed the OT Laws any less than the various Diaspora Jews of their time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 06-24-2012 8:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 06-25-2012 9:34 AM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 80 (666255)
06-25-2012 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by purpledawn
06-25-2012 7:15 AM


Re: Difficult But Not Forbidden
Well, the audience will decide whether or not either of us have supported our position.

A few additional points though.

The Laws were not all legally binding, in fact most were simply a matter of custom.

Yes, there were several Jewish sects and yes they did have varying opinions; simply reading the Talmud should be enough to confirm that.

However both Peter and Paul were of sects that definitely considered keeping Kosher as required and yet they both changed their position. They dropped keeping Kosher as a requirement.

You may not see it but it really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2012 7:15 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2012 10:35 AM jar has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 42 of 80 (666259)
06-25-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
06-25-2012 9:34 AM


Re: Difficult But Not Forbidden
quote:
However both Peter and Paul were of sects that definitely considered keeping Kosher as required and yet they both changed their position. They dropped keeping Kosher as a requirement.

You may not see it but it really is that simple.


Requirement for what?

You haven't shown that Paul and Peter didn't follow the Jewish dietary laws.

Acts 25:8
Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

Excerpt from: How People Lived In The Bible 2002

Most ancient people ate meat sparingly. Beans and fresh veggies comprised most everyday meals, but when company was coming or there was something to really celebrate, it was time to kill the fatted calf!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 06-25-2012 9:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 06-25-2012 10:53 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 80 (666260)
06-25-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
06-25-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Difficult But Not Forbidden
Did Peter and Paul eat with Gentiles in Gentile owned houses?

Could they know whether or not the bread was baked in an oven our used water from a pot that was unclean?

As I pointed out above there were Laws that were part of the legal system and Laws that part of custom.

The audience can decide what I have shown or not shown.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2012 10:35 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 44 of 80 (666271)
06-25-2012 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LexM1985
06-16-2012 7:48 AM


Here's my quick take on the issue: the jews made everything way too complicated with all their little rules about everything. Jesus came and explained that its not really that difficult; just love god and each other.

I wouldn't say that made the OT "null and void" tho. Its more like it made it unnecessary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LexM1985, posted 06-16-2012 7:48 AM LexM1985 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2012 1:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 06-26-2012 6:11 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 80 (666278)
06-25-2012 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
06-25-2012 12:01 PM


Extreme Fence
IMO, it became more complicated when the leading Jews figured perfect adherence to the laws would get them their nation and temple back. They developed the fence, which was extreme in some cases.

Before that I don't feel they were any more complicated than any other nation's laws.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-25-2012 12:01 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-25-2012 2:29 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Prev12
3
456Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019