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Author Topic:   Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void
jar
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Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 3 of 80 (665719)
06-16-2012 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LexM1985
06-16-2012 7:48 AM


Expanding the franchise
Making most of the Jewish laws null and void had far less to do with Jesus than the practical requirements of expanding the franchise.

Much of the Law was created to preserve a separate identity of a minority in exile. In particular, the requirement of being circumcised to fulfill the Covenant and the necessity of keeping Kosher (not eating with non-Jews if possible and not eating off plates, knives, cups or spoons that had been used by a non-Jew) were simply impractical for an evangelical marketing plan.

If the new franchise was going to expand into non-Jewish populations, the Laws had to be relaxed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 10 of 80 (665968)
06-20-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
06-20-2012 10:39 AM


There were other parts that also got dropped, ritual washings and no work on the Sabbath and just about anything that was simply inconvenient.

Those parts of the law though that were common to all religions, (don't lie, cheat, steal, murder) were retained.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 27 of 80 (666192)
06-23-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
06-23-2012 6:11 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
And I assume that for once you will present the chapter and verse specific to your alleged prophecies so that they can be examined?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 30 of 80 (666198)
06-23-2012 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by purpledawn
06-23-2012 9:18 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
But the Jewish Christian cult did abandon much of the Law.

Peter and Paul are two great examples.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 80 (666221)
06-24-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 6:33 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
They ate with non Jews, ate unclean foods.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 80 (666223)
06-24-2012 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 6:56 PM


Re: Dropped Laws
Scripture shouldn't be needed if you've read the Bible but consider Acts 10. Peter goes into the house of Cornelius.

Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles often went in and associated with non-Jews.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 80 (666226)
06-24-2012 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 7:22 PM


Re: Associating with Gentiles
But keeping Kosher is, and that means not eating off plates a non-Jew used, not using utensils that an non-Jew used.

The key is not specific OT laws (unless you want to be pedantic) but is explicit in many Old Testament stories. The point of Ruth is that she was NOT Jewish; the point of the Good Samaritan was that he was NOT Jewish. And the idea that Jews and thus Jewish behavior and customs were different and specific goes somewhat further back than 10AD; rather it goes to the time of the exile to Babylon and the need to create a Jewish identity and even earlier to the creation of "Israel".

Peter, Paul and others were trying to market a new franchise, and to do that they had to adopt the customs of their prospective converts. Even the idea of marketing a new NON-Jewish Jewish sect was new and the idea of letting in men in particular without the requirement of an initiation rite was a total change in orientation.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 80 (666228)
06-24-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by purpledawn
06-24-2012 8:36 PM


Re: Associating with Gentiles
Some plates could be washed. But unless done by someone who understands the requirements it is not Kosher. And of course, any clay pot where an unclean critter has touched and anything that touches or is in such an unclean pot is unclean. That also applies to how food was prepared and stored, cooked, handled, what ingredients are included.

Leviticus 11:

quote:
29 Of the animals that move along the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, 30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon. 31 Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. 32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. 33 If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. 34 Any food you are allowed to eat that has come into contact with water from any such pot is unclean, and any liquid that is drunk from such a pot is unclean. 35 Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean.

The support is common sense. The Laws were detailed, often arbitrary, sometimes contradictory and whether the source was Biblical, or Rabbinical or simply custom, complex and obscure.

When you entered a non-Jewish hose there was simply no way to know the history of the food offered.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 80 (666255)
06-25-2012 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by purpledawn
06-25-2012 7:15 AM


Re: Difficult But Not Forbidden
Well, the audience will decide whether or not either of us have supported our position.

A few additional points though.

The Laws were not all legally binding, in fact most were simply a matter of custom.

Yes, there were several Jewish sects and yes they did have varying opinions; simply reading the Talmud should be enough to confirm that.

However both Peter and Paul were of sects that definitely considered keeping Kosher as required and yet they both changed their position. They dropped keeping Kosher as a requirement.

You may not see it but it really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2012 10:35 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 80 (666260)
06-25-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
06-25-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Difficult But Not Forbidden
Did Peter and Paul eat with Gentiles in Gentile owned houses?

Could they know whether or not the bread was baked in an oven our used water from a pot that was unclean?

As I pointed out above there were Laws that were part of the legal system and Laws that part of custom.

The audience can decide what I have shown or not shown.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 80 (669719)
08-01-2012 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hawkins
08-01-2012 10:58 PM


Re: Law and Covenants
Well, Jews don't have the concept of "saved" similar to Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 10:58 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
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