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Author Topic:   Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 80 (666291)
06-25-2012 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by purpledawn
06-25-2012 1:16 PM


Re: Extreme Fence
IMO, it became more complicated when the leading Jews figured perfect adherence to the laws would get them their nation and temple back.

How'd they figure that? What, if we really really obey the laws then God will give us our nation and temple back?

They developed the fence, which was extreme in some cases.

But there were religious reasons too, rather than just political ones, no?

Before that I don't feel they were any more complicated than any other nation's laws.

But Jesus wasn't talking about not needing national laws. He was talking about the religious aspect. It doesn't really matter if what you're doing might technically count as work and you happen to be doing it on Saturday, just love God and each other.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 80 (666293)
06-25-2012 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
06-24-2012 12:47 PM


Just a quiet Jeer from the sidelines? A little help here!

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 Message 31 by Jon, posted 06-24-2012 12:47 PM Jon has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 80 (666306)
06-25-2012 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by New Cat's Eye
06-25-2012 2:31 PM


You need to offer some textual support for your claims.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 80 (666313)
06-25-2012 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
06-25-2012 5:47 PM


Oh, so that's how its gonna be. Which part do you disagree with that needs suporting?

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 80 (666337)
06-26-2012 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
06-25-2012 12:01 PM


Love Etc Not Law But Spirit
CS writes:

Here's my quick take on the issue: the jews made everything way too complicated with all their little rules about everything. Jesus came and explained that its not really that difficult; just love god and each other.

I believe the Apostle Paul attested to this in Galations 5:22,23. He said:

quote:
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Against such there is no law..

(Color mine for emphasis)
(spirit=God's Holy Spirit that dwells in the believer's body and soul, i.e. baptism of the Holy Spirit, i.e. New birth, i.e. receiving Jesus as savior and lord)

ABE: The Pharasee and Saducee Jews who had Jesus crucified and persecuted the apostles insisted on them obeying the letter of the Levitical law but had hate, murder, mean-ness, etc in their hearts.

Edited by Buzsaw, : As Noted


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 51 of 80 (666344)
06-26-2012 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
06-25-2012 2:29 PM


Fullness of the Gentiles
quote:
How'd they figure that? What, if we really really obey the laws then God will give us our nation and temple back?
The Jews have lost two temples. The first in 586 bce and the second in 70 ce.

From "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Judaism" by Rabbi Benjamin Blech 1999 (First five commandments, tablet 1, deal with human obligations to God and the second five, tablet 2, deal with relationships of people to people.)

The first temple was destroyed because Jews worshiped idols. They had forsaken the God of their ancestors. Simply put, they broke the first tablet. The second time around, Jews were "religious" and deeply pious in their allegiance to God, but profoundly insensitive to ethical behavior between themselves. The second temple was destroyed, the rabbis realized, because of needless hatred between Jew and fellow Jew. The values of the second tablet were the ones disregarded.

Herod did build the second temple and they got most of their independence back for a time. Hasmonean Dynasty

In reading "A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson", we find a lot of conflict between Greeks and Jews. The author feels that the Jewish Leadership would not have minded assimilating the Greeks, but didn't like the Greeks hellenizing Judaism.

Even Paul was probably trying to bring about the fullness of the Gentiles.

Also from the idiot's guide:

The Messianic vision places upon Jews a responsibility and a mission to perfect the world and to serve as a light unto the nations.

A lot of political and religious issues the Jewish leadership had to deal with. Tough times.

quote:
But Jesus wasn't talking about not needing national laws. He was talking about the religious aspect. It doesn't really matter if what you're doing might technically count as work and you happen to be doing it on Saturday, just love God and each other.
Exactly! Hillel the Elder was concerned about the people.

Hillel's rulings were often based on concern for the welfare of the individual. For example with regard to the remarriage of an aguna, whose husband is not known with certainty to be alive or dead, the view of Hillel (and most of his colleagues) was that she can remarry even on the basis of indirect evidence of the husband's death. Bet Shammai required that witnesses come forth with direct testimony before she was permitted to remarry. Another example of his leniency as compared with Shammai involves converts; Hillel favored the admission of proselytes into Judaism even when they made unreasonable demands, such as one did by demanding that the whole Torah be taught to him quickly "while standing on one foot." Hillel accepted this person as eligible for conversion, whereas Shammai dismissed him as not serious about Judaism.

Jesus followed that school of thinking. What Jesus did do was take these teachings to the Jewish people. He didn't just teach those who came to worship.

During the Roman takeover, the Romans left the Jews their religion but took the state.

Gentiles didn't have to take on the full mantle of Judaism unless they wanted to. Jewish Christians were still bound by any Jewish laws they were already following and Non-Jewish Christians were bound by the religious rules given them through the Christian Sect.

The national aspect of the OT laws were made unnecessary before Jesus started his mission and the religious aspect of the OT laws were still applicable to Jewish Christians as much as they were before they became Christians. IOW, if a Jewish Christian wasn't practicing strict Judaism before they became a Christian, they probably didn't after they became a Christian.

As I said in Message 5: The Mosaic Laws were the basis for the Jewish legal system when they were an independent nation. Jesus did not do away with the Jewish legal system. The Jewish followers of Jesus still followed the Mosaic Laws as allowed by the Romans.

Laws and rules can get complicated. Interpretations vary.

Halakhah
A major problem here is the motivation behind the approaches of the two rival schools. The theory associated with L. Ginzberg (On Jewish Law and Lore (1955), 102–18) and L. Finkelstein (op. cit.) finds the differences in the different social strata to which the schools belonged. The school of Shammai, it is argued, was legislating for the upper classes, the wealthy landowners and aristocrats, while the school of Hillel was legislating for the poorer urban workers and artisans. Thus according to the school of Hillel the legal definition of a "meal" is one dish, whereas according to the school of Shammai it is at least two dishes (Beẓah 2:1). In most societies the woman has a much more significant role among the upper classes than among the lower. Hence the school of Hillel rules that a valid marriage can be effected by the delivery to the woman of the smallest coin – a perutah – whereas the school of Shammai demands the much larger minimum amount of a dinar (Kid. 1:1). The school of Shammai only permits the divorce of a wife if she is unfaithful whereas the school of Hillel permits it on other grounds (Git. 9:10). While there is undoubtedly some truth in the theory of social motivation it is too sweeping to be entirely adequate. Other motives, such as different exegetical methods, were also at work (see Alon, Meḥkarim, 2 (1958), 181–222).

I don't feel the coming of Jesus rendered the law of the OT null and void. A changing world altered what was needed as is the case with most laws and rules. Even Christianity adjusts for a changing world. Reformation


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 80 (666364)
06-26-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
06-26-2012 8:49 AM


Re: Fullness of the Gentiles
Very informative post, PD, thanks! I don't know much about Jewish history so I've got some brushing up to do. I hit you back when I can make a more meaningful reply.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 80 (666374)
06-26-2012 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
06-26-2012 8:49 AM


Re: Fullness of the Gentiles
Jewish Christians were still bound by any Jewish laws they were already following

Evidence?


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 80 (666391)
06-26-2012 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jon
06-26-2012 1:36 PM


Jewish Christians
quote:
Evidence?
Evidence that becoming Christian didn't stop Jewish Christians from following the Jewish law as they did before becoming Christian.

Three views of the Jewish-Christian schism.
At the same time, they expanded an old prayer to include an imprecation against the minim, Jews with incorrect beliefs. In this period, this could only have meant the early Jewish Christians, who observed the laws of Judaism but accepted the messiahship of Jesus. Although the rabbis continued to regard the early Christians as Jews, they reformulated this prayer in order to expel them from the synagogue, as testified to by the Gospel of John and the church fathers.

Acts 2:46, 3:1, 21:20-26

The Jewish Christians were just as bound by Jewish laws as they were before they became Christians. IOW, becoming a Christian didn't demand that they stop following Jewish laws.

The Mysterious Relationship of The Early Nazarene Christians and Rabbinic Judaism

Jerome also tells us that the Jewish Nazarenes, or followers of Jesus of Nazareth -- Yeshu-Notzri -- were cursed in the synagogues "by the Pharisees," and that they mixed faith in Christ with the keeping of the Law (p. 55). In other words, they were true Christians! For Jesus Himself said He did not come to destroy or to do away with the Law

If they were lax on the Jewish laws before becoming Christian, they were probably lax afterwards.

In Acts 21:20-26, Paul had to show that he was not telling Jews to turn away from Moses or Jewish customs. If Paul wasn't following Jewish laws or customs and only followed them to appease these men, then he was just as much a hypocrite as he accused Peter of being in Galatians 2:11-21.


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 Message 53 by Jon, posted 06-26-2012 1:36 PM Jon has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 80 (666394)
06-26-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
06-26-2012 3:16 PM


Re: Jewish Christians
Evidence that becoming Christian didn't stop Jewish Christians from following the Jewish law as they did before becoming Christian.

No. Evidence that: "Jewish Christians were still bound by any Jewish laws they were already following" (Message 51).


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 80 (666400)
06-26-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Jon
06-26-2012 3:46 PM


Re: Jewish Christians
quote:
No. Evidence that: "Jewish Christians were still bound by any Jewish laws they were already following" (Message 51).
Acts 21:27

Paul was arrested.

ABE

First Century Context
The Jewish people accepted their freedom in both their governing system, and in maintaining their own traditions, yet the Roman government required that everything be ultimately subject to Roman authority. For example, Jewish citizens were under the authority of the Jewish court system (the Sanhedrin), yet all rulings for the death penalty were sent to the Roman government.

Edited by purpledawn, : ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 06-26-2012 3:46 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 80 (666407)
06-26-2012 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
06-26-2012 4:30 PM


Re: Jewish Christians
You only prove that there was disagreement over whether keeping to the Law was still a requirement or not to be a member of the new Jesus movement.

I'm afraid you're still picking the wrong nits.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 80 (666412)
06-26-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Jon
06-26-2012 5:55 PM


Re: Jewish Christians
quote:
You only prove that there was disagreement over whether keeping to the Law was still a requirement or not to be a member of the new Jesus movement.

I'm afraid you're still picking the wrong nits.


If you disagree with my position, then present your rebuttal with support for your position.

What I provided has nothing to do with keeping the law as a requirement to be a Christian.

Jewish Citizens, whether Christian or not were still subject to the Jewish Laws in place.

If you disagree, make your argument and show support.

I've already said several times that keeping the Jewish laws had nothing to do with being a Christian.


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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 80 (666413)
06-26-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by purpledawn
06-26-2012 6:22 PM


Re: Jewish Christians
If you disagree, make your argument and show support.

I've already made my argument and shown my support. Just click on the Jon Posts Only link under my avatar. You may not feel as though I've made my case, but I don't have the time to repeat myself. Others can decide for themselves who made the better argument based on our posts as they stand.

Jon

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


(1)
Message 60 of 80 (666493)
06-27-2012 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Jon
06-26-2012 6:44 PM


Administrative comments
I was requested to go over this topic and find out if everyone was behaving civally towards one another or not. Working through the messages, I began to see that the participants all laid out their support and began to direct the topic how they saw fit.

Jon, message #18 became a bit personal.

In message 19 through 22, it seems both Jon and PD insist that each other listen to each others framework.

Message# 26 was also personal, Jon. The Forum Guidelines state in message 10 --The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

Apart from that, I am impressed with the homework you participants put into these threads! It seems that you are passionate about your answers and support them quite well.

Apart from that, all I can say is play nicely.

Edited by AdminPhat, : read through more thoroughly


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