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Topic: German judge rules child circumcision as child abuse.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 14 of 410 (666667)
06-29-2012 12:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Kairyu
06-29-2012 6:20 AM
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The doctor may have been guilty of malpractice. If anybody is guilty of causing grievous bodily harm, it's the parents. Next case.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Kairyu, posted 06-29-2012 6:20 AM | | Kairyu has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 40 of 410 (666703)
06-29-2012 2:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
06-29-2012 2:25 PM
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Re: Be Happy with who you ARE!
crashfrog writes: Right, it's a foreskin - a useful and extremely nerve-rich portion of the penis, the loss of which is known to be blunting to sexual pleasure.
A foreskin to a circumcised infant is like a handgun to a Canadian: if you've never had one, you don't miss it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 2:25 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 47 of 410 (666711)
06-29-2012 3:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by Jazzns
06-29-2012 3:01 PM
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Re: Should be outlawed
Jazzns writes: And what of the few who HAVE had impaired use, disability, or destruction, or even death as a result?
So should we ban everything that parents do that might cause some inconvenience in the future? Smoking? Going to church? Sunday drives?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 3:01 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 50 of 410 (666715)
06-29-2012 3:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by xongsmith
06-29-2012 3:05 PM
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Re: Be Happy with who you ARE!
xongsmith writes: No one has ever been born with a handgun.
Irrelevant. A loss is not a loss unless you notice it. Donald Trump doesn't miss a nickel, whether he was born with one or not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by xongsmith, posted 06-29-2012 3:05 PM | | xongsmith has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 58 of 410 (666724)
06-29-2012 3:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by Jazzns
06-29-2012 3:19 PM
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Re: Should be outlawed
Jazzns writes: Some men are in fact mutilated (using Jon's criteria) by their circumcision and and argument can be made that all men are.
Some are scarred by their parents' smoking. Some are mentally scarred by being taken to church. Some are injured on Sunday drives. Should we ban everything that has the potential to harm our children?
Jazzns writes: There is no reason to do it and the risks are high enough, I argue, that it warrants that even making it permissible is wrong.
You don't get to decide for everybody what is a valid purpose and what is not.
Jazzns writes: We widely recognize that female circumcision is wrong and condemn it at the highest levels in our society. Yet there is some strange change in how we view it for males. The why seems pretty obvious. Culture and religion.
The only obvious difference is one of degree. It's like the difference between taking your child on a Sunday drive or deliberatey running over him. Edited by ringo, : Speling.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 3:19 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 3:48 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 59 of 410 (666725)
06-29-2012 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by xongsmith
06-29-2012 3:26 PM
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Re: Be Happy with who you ARE!
xongsmith writes: I think every circumcised boy probably noticed it.
I doubt if many of them remember it a week later.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by xongsmith, posted 06-29-2012 3:26 PM | | xongsmith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 69 of 410 (666737)
06-29-2012 4:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Jazzns
06-29-2012 3:48 PM
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Re: Should be outlawed
Jazzns writes: But society does have that right through our democratic processes and I am simply advocating for the position that infant circumcision should be outlawed for all non-medical purposes.
I don't agree that the majority has a right to infringe on the freedom of minorities - especially on such minor matters as circumcision.
Jazzns writes: Just like how we outlaw smoking in public, driving too fast on our roads, and failing to give children a civil education. WE DO get to decide.
Those are clear and present dangers. Circumcision isn't in the same league.
Jazzns writes: Both circumcision practices involve the medically unnecessary excision of a human being unable to consent.
Both driving practices involve the use of a motor vehicle to put a child at unnecessary risk.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 3:48 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 4:18 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 82 of 410 (666751)
06-29-2012 4:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Jazzns
06-29-2012 4:18 PM
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Re: Should be outlawed
Jazzns writes: There is no such minority right as the permission to do what you want to your children.
Of course there is. It's the one you're trying to revoke. Parents have the right and the responsibility to decide, in collaboration with medical practitioners, what's best for their children's health. There's no fundamental difference between that right and the right to decide, in collaboration with religious practitioners, what's best for their children's souls.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 4:18 PM | | Jazzns has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 87 of 410 (666758)
06-29-2012 4:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Jazzns
06-29-2012 4:23 PM
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Re: Should be outlawed
Jazzns writes: If you and ringo think that the freedom to take a sunday drive is the same as the freedom to slice off body parts, then I cannot concieve of anything I could say that can talk you down from that position.
Factoid: More people are killed in car accidents than by circumcisions. (My condolences on you lack of imagination.  )
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Jazzns, posted 06-29-2012 4:23 PM | | Jazzns has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 103 of 410 (666777)
06-29-2012 5:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by crashfrog
06-29-2012 4:58 PM
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Re: Be Happy with who you ARE!
crashfrog writes: Why would people have restored something they don't "miss"?
Why would Donald Trump go after another million? You don't have to "miss" something to want it.
When circumcision is outlawed, only outlaws will be circumcised.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 4:58 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 105 of 410 (666779)
06-29-2012 5:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 96 by crashfrog
06-29-2012 5:00 PM
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Re: Should be outlawed
crashfrog writes: How about just the things that are medical amputations performed for cosmetic or religious purpose?
I didn't think you Americans were allowed to ban religious practices. I can see banning circumcison in schools but I don't agree with banning prayer in hospitals.
When circumcision is outlawed, only outlaws will be circumcised.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 5:00 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Should be outlawed
crashfrog writes: But circumcision isn't justified by the child's health
Sez you.
crashfrog writes: And we don't allow parents to violate the integrity of their children's bodies, in permanent ways, on those bases.
Sure we do. We allow circumcision.
When circumcision is outlawed, only outlaws will be circumcised.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 5:18 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Should be outlawed
crashfrog writes: Religion doesn't trump the law.
I think it does. I hope it does because it's enshrined on the same level as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly. Isn't it?
When circumcision is outlawed, only outlaws will be circumcised.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 5:20 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Should be outlawed
crashfrog writes: Well, try to use some peyote for a religious purpose and find out if it does.
That's an exception, based on America's insane fear of any drug that doesn't benefit big corporations. As a general rule, religious practices are protected. There's unlikely to be another exception for circumcision unless it makes the rich richer. Edited by ringo, : Spellig.
When circumcision is outlawed, only outlaws will be circumcised.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 5:30 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 712 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Should be outlawed
crashfrog writes: So circumcision should be allowed because it's allowed?
You claimed that, "we don't allow parents to violate the integrity of their children's bodies, in permanent ways, on those bases." I pointed out that we do. It wasn't an argument. It was a point of fact.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2012 5:26 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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