The Power of Belief

Well yes they are different things. The thread is progressing and the idea's are being refined. Im sorry if I gave the impression that I had come up with Dogmafood's all encompassing grand and unbelievable theory of the power of belief. The fact is that I have to make some statement to get the ball rolling. It does not bother me at all to admit to changing my position. In fact, that is my purpose in participating in these discussions. To alter or confirm what I believe to be true. This is a perfect example of re-evaluating my model of reality. Well that and providing all you genius types an opportunity to shine brightly against my dimness. Honestly, I participate here because I fully realize that there are a lot of very intelligent and well educated people who are very likely to teach me something if I can manage to be intelligent enough to a) engage them and b) understand what they are saying.On the other hand, I have not really changed my position all that much. In the OP I clearly stated that my belief in being able to fly does not mean that I can jump from the building and fly with my arms. When I said

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It is clear to me that if I believe something with enough conviction that I can make it so.

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I don't think people stopped to consider why I believe what I believe. Immediately the objections go to the extreme examples that disprove the statement. Like FTL and PM. Of course, I do not believe with great conviction that FTL or PM are possible.My objective is to identify the extent of the truth of the idea. I think that we have established that a person's belief in their abilities is one of the variables that contribute to the likelihood of that thing actually being accomplished. In other words, the belief is required to make the thing achievable. In still some more words, it is the belief that moves the thing from the realm of the impossible into the realm of the possible. Take something that is physically possible (according to the laws of nature) but unachievable without a high degree of commitment or belief. From an egocentric position, is the thing possible or not without the belief? The example of the depressed person changing their reality still stands. Mod's answer to the example of belief in an afterlife sort of sidestepped the fact that that belief actually changes the holder's reality regardless of whether the belief is fallacious or not. He also used a counter example that could be proved false and would necessitate the changing of one's belief. No it is not. Somebody raised this point before. What is the predictive power of the idea? I don't know. I guess it comes to a close examination of all the elements that go into forming a belief and weeding out the ones that are suspect or held with a lower degree of certainty. I suppose that there are different types of belief. Believing that 2 and 2 are 4 is not really in the same category as believing that you can run a mile in 3:40.Take the Higgs-Boson thing-a-ma-jiggy for example. Professor Higgs postulated it's existence and supplied his justifications. Enough people agreed with him to devote billions of dollars to go looking for it. The belief that the Higgs exists is not the same as the belief in an afterlife. There is a conflation here between belief and faith.

Basically he was lamenting the lack of visionary thinking in general and the lack of investment in NASA and space exploration in particular. He makes the economic case for increasing the investment. He points to all of the unexpected benefits of space exploration such as MRI and the whole radiology dept in any hospital.He makes a lot of the same points in these videos.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlGemHL5vLY&feature=relatedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFO2usVjfQc&feature=relmfu

I noticed and appreciate that. Taking what I can get, I am happy to hear you say that belief is one of the inputs in the calculation. I suppose it is more accurate to say that if gravity says it is OK then you can go on and include the level of belief in the calculation. I had the same question but was trying desperately to avoid another free will discussion. I would agree but is it always the latter?

Well, nothing causes miracles Straggler but belief is certainly one of the factors involved when determining the possibility of a thing. If it is a factor in the calculation then it can make that which is otherwise impossible possible. It is clear that the skeptic wants to dismiss belief as a force of nature. Why? I guess my point is that it is far more impressive and potent than it is generally perceived to be.Look at the effect that the general belief that the terrorists were coming has had on the level of freedom in the world today. Or what causes a run on the bank? What part does belief play in the health of our economies? Why is the bias of any particular news service important? What part does belief play in the turmoil of the Middle East? Are these trivial things?

Bit of a straw man there Straggler. Who believes that they can run a mile in under a second? On the other hand, had someone said that they could run the mile in 3:43 way back in 1913 they would have been laughed at. I don't know. Running the mile in under a second seems to fall into the unbelievable category while a quantum computer or manned space flight to Alpha Centauri do not. I would say that all of those elements go into forming your beliefs. Your beliefs are a summary of your state of mind. How many times do I have to agree with this point. From the OP

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I am not suggesting that my belief in being able to fly has any effect on the laws of aerodynamics but it does effect the chances of the plane being built.

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Having legs is a big factor in whether or not you can run the mile in 3:40. A much bigger factor than your belief in your ability to do it. OK? If it is a force then it is a force of nature. Impossible/possible is not the central point but just an egocentric assessment. Lets say accomplished and un-accomplished. Actually, what I am trying to do is to de-couple the reality of the effect of belief from the woo. Perhaps doing a poor job but none the less. Your position diminishes the power of belief right out of existence which is also wrong. I would certainly say that his belief in Santa shapes his reality. Would you not?Would you say that a berserker's rage changes his reality or the reality of those that he meets on the battlefield? Any forces of nature at work there? Fear is an excellent example of your beliefs fucking with your reality. Bingo. It is not magic. Exactly and as behaviour is at least partially dictated by belief it is rather important what people believe to be true. Yes they are. Your belief is a factor in both riding your bike to work and climbing Mt Everest. I would say that it is more of a factor in one of those activities. No, sex is different. More of an instinctive thing. Love and greed maybe as your conscious mind might have a little more input but it is all covered by your beliefs whatever the drivers are. I think that the salient point is that your beliefs are somewhat adjustable. Not entirely right but somewhat. Your sense of morality can over-ride your desire to mate with everything or rob from the weak.Getting away from the idea that it is some sort of magical power and make the distinction between what you believe and what you wish were true. I fully agree that the power of knowledge far exceeds the power of belief but can we not quantify it any further than that?--------------------------------------- While we also celebrate at christmas time, I was careful to not instil a belief in Santa in my children. I viewed it as deceptive even though the belief brings a lot of joy to children. In the same way, what is wrong with believing in an afterlife if it actually brings a palpable joy? I can not bring myself to believe in an afterlife but I could certainly convince my children of one. The fact is that it takes some delicate manoeuvring to remove the idea that others have tried to convince them of. I have a bit of a doubt with regard to depriving my children of the joy of Santa. How is that different from depriving them of the joy of believing in an afterlife?When your son draws a picture of a dog and a tree that only just barely looks like a dog and a tree, what do you say to him? Do you discourage him at every failure or do you encourage him to try again? I imagine it is the latter and why do you do that? You do it because his perception of his ability is extremely important to the actual development of his ability.

When I was a wee lad of 14 I was sent off to a boarding school that had a rigorous outdoor program. We snow shoed between 10 and 16 miles every Saturday during the winter. At the end of the season there was a 24 mile race between all the teams. I guess the idea was to bring you up to the end of your endurance and then demand that you go a little further. The dynamic of the team structure really worked well at dissuading you from giving up, which you could do if you had to but then the whole team forfeited. I thought it was rather barbaric and bordered on abuse (froze both ears and nearly lost a toe) but it sure exposed a reserve that I didn't know that I had.There is also hysterical strength. An adrenaline boost triggered by fear that will enable someone to exert more force than they would otherwise be capable of. A sort of turbo charger when death is imminent. Usually causes a lot of damage though.

Remember Victor Hugo's fictional character Jean Valjean and the impact that Bishop Myriel’s compassion and belief in his capacity to be a good person had on him?

So belief has a cumulative quality sort of like gravity or has the potential to go viral.For many, the accuracy of the belief does not seem to be as important as the appeal of the belief. In fact the power of belief may be illuminated to a greater degree by false beliefs or unfalsifiable beliefs. Just look at what the power of belief has done for the Catholic church or religion in general and it's adherents.I find myself more and more hesitant to attack the religious beliefs of others. It seems cruel to destroy something that obviously brings them some comfort. I speak up when they try to foist them on me or my children but I wonder what purpose it serves to disabuse them of a belief that seems to serve them well.

This is exactly one of the elements that I wanted to explore. Your belief, regardless of it's accuracy, brings you some comfort. For many that same belief is the cornerstone of their existence. Their entire world view is informed by it. They can overcome hardship or they can accomplish great things because of it. If holding such a belief allows someone to achieve these things what does it matter if the belief is right or wrong?

True enough. Knowledge is more powerful and useful and reliable than belief.I am looking at those cases when, in the absence of knowledge, your chosen belief is the most important factor. As with a belief in an afterlife. I appreciate that it is a slippery slope.