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Author Topic:   God Is Cursing America
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 150 (667490)
07-08-2012 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
07-08-2012 8:45 AM


Re: Learn the basics.
Unless it is recorded and sanctioned by the government it carries NO rights or responsibilities.

Nonsense. There are plenty of other societal forces other than the government that can compel completion of contracts. Office football pools are not sanctioned by the government, but the pool runners are obligated to pay the winners despite the fact that the winners cannot and will not sue.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 07-08-2012 8:45 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-08-2012 9:08 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 123 by onifre, posted 07-08-2012 9:39 AM NoNukes has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 150 (667491)
07-08-2012 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
07-08-2012 9:01 AM


Re: Learn the basics.
But office football pools are not marriage I believe.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2012 9:01 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 07-10-2012 1:02 AM jar has responded

onifre
Member (Idle past 1030 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 123 of 150 (667494)
07-08-2012 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
07-08-2012 9:01 AM


Re: Learn the basics.
Office football pools are not sanctioned by the government, but the pool runners are obligated to pay the winners despite the fact that the winners cannot and will not sue.

Seriously? Fantasy football is your example when talking about the binding contract issued by the state for legal marriages?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2012 9:01 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2012 10:14 AM onifre has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 150 (667498)
07-08-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by onifre
07-08-2012 9:39 AM


Re: Learn the basics.
Seriously? Fantasy football is your example when talking about the binding contract issued by the state for legal marriages?

Of course not. I am not suggesting at all that government recognition of marriage is unimportant. There are a whole host of rights that married couples have that come only with government recognition. People, like Buzsaw that suggest that those things are unimportant are simply wrong.

But jar's comment still goes way overboard. Not every responsibility that we expect people to respect is enforced by the government. And in fact, marriages involved a lot of duties and responsibilities that are not enforced by the government.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by onifre, posted 07-08-2012 9:39 AM onifre has not yet responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 125 of 150 (667500)
07-08-2012 11:57 AM


Does anyone think that it has not been established that all of Buz's points have been demolished?

If so could you post to that effect?

Thanks.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Panda, posted 07-09-2012 10:32 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(3)
Message 126 of 150 (667507)
07-08-2012 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Buzsaw
07-08-2012 6:41 AM


Re: Evidence Pertaining To Israel & Sodomy ]
Anyone can have a private marriage contract among their own group, church etc unrecorded by the government. Some churches do this for elderly couples who co-habit.

Gays/lesbians would not be denied this same option.

Yea and when one coupple has an accident and is lying in a hospital room in a coma, the other couple wants to go and see him but he cant because he/she is not family.

Or joint tax returns, insurance .... and a million other things.

To me marriage is just a piece of paper but if i wanted to marry to reap some of the benifits and i could not because of some biggots i would be pissed.

What if when you got married someone would say its not legal because my magic man does not allow marries between blonds and black haired people, or skin colour or eye colour ore some other thing that applies to you. What would you tell that person?

If 2 adaults want to get married it does not affect me in any way so why would i complain.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 07-08-2012 6:41 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 07-08-2012 6:25 PM frako has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 150 (667509)
07-08-2012 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by frako
07-08-2012 2:24 PM


'Re: Benefits and Visiting Rights]
Frako, your benefits argument is moot, because both gays and straights still share the same rights and things they can't do like get benefits or visit in hospitals.

You're scraping the bottom of your argument barrel and running out of sensible substance.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by frako, posted 07-08-2012 2:24 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Panda, posted 07-08-2012 6:34 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 132 by frako, posted 07-09-2012 3:06 AM Buzsaw has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1792 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(5)
Message 128 of 150 (667511)
07-08-2012 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
07-08-2012 6:25 PM


Re: 'Re: Benefits and Visiting Rights]
Buzsaw writes:

...both gays and straights still share the same rights and things they can't do like get benefits or visit in hospitals.


No they don't.
Marriage is far more than a piece of paper.
It is a legal status which confers additional rights.
But I guess it makes sense: you have to say ridiculous things to support your ridiculous position.

Buzsaw writes:

You're scraping the bottom of your argument barrel and running out of sensible substance.


If pointing out that you are wrong is "scraping the bottom of the barrel" then that is not frako's fault - it is simply where your arguments are located.

CRYSTALS!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 07-08-2012 6:25 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 150 (667513)
07-08-2012 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
07-08-2012 8:45 AM


Re: Rights, Etc.
jar writes:

it carries NO rights or responsibilities

As it should be. All such marriages amount to is to ligitimize the relationship in the eyes and opinion of the group, club or church and to prevent problems with sharing wealth, inheritance, etc. The heirs of the estates of each are not affected by such unions, whereas state liscensed marriages might require dividing the estate of the different families involved.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 07-08-2012 8:45 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 07-08-2012 6:48 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2012 2:25 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 150 (667515)
07-08-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Buzsaw
07-08-2012 6:36 PM


Honesty, Etc.
What I ACTUALLY said Buz was:

quote:
Buz, marriage is a legal contract issued or recognized by the government.

Unless it is recorded and sanctioned by the government it carries NO rights or responsibilities.


Marriage is a licensed act in the US.

It is also irrelevant to the many unsupported assertions you continue to make.

How does legalizing same sex marriage legitimize sodomy?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Buzsaw, posted 07-08-2012 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 131 of 150 (667524)
07-09-2012 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Buzsaw
07-08-2012 6:36 PM


Re: Rights, Etc.
quote:

As it should be. All such marriages amount to is to ligitimize the relationship in the eyes and opinion of the group, club or church and to prevent problems with sharing wealth, inheritance, etc. The heirs of the estates of each are not affected by such unions, whereas state liscensed marriages might require dividing the estate of the different families involved.

In other words you DON'T support gays having the same rights as everyone else. One of the most important benefits of marriage is to be recognised as next-of-kin - and hospital visiting rights can be denied on the basis that a gay partner is "only a friend", not a relative. Equally, why should a cohabiting gay partner, living in a relationship that is marriage in all but the legalities be denied an inheritance if their partner dies without a will ?

And we still have the fact that this is NOTHING to do with Sodom, as depicted in the Bible. There's no mention of gay weddings in Sodom. The story is that the entire male population - who would be mostly straight, not gay - got together to rape male visitors (and in this case the visitor was an angel).

Letting gay people have the legal benefits of marriage IS giving the same rights as everyone else. It is NOT anything like Sodom.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Buzsaw, posted 07-08-2012 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Lithodid-Man, posted 07-09-2012 6:41 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(3)
Message 132 of 150 (667525)
07-09-2012 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
07-08-2012 6:25 PM


Re: 'Re: Benefits and Visiting Rights]
Frako, your benefits argument is moot, because both gays and straights still share the same rights and things they can't do like get benefits or visit in hospitals.

But i just wrote to you they dont, a married couple can see each other in a hospital room if one is incapacitated they can even relay the wishes of the one incapacitated to the hospital. Gays cannot marry so they cannot do that. Married couples can flile joint tax returns gay couples cannot marie. Married people can get easier lones to buy houses gay couples cannot marrie. Married people can get discounts in hotels gay people cannot marrie. Married people directly inherit their dead spouses belongings gays haveto draw a will and pay larger taxes on the inheritance.

and every one of these rights they cannot get

Rights and benefits

Right to benefits while married:
employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges
per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating
Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances)
sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits
Larger benefits under some programs if married, including:
veteran's disability
Supplemental Security Income
disability payments for federal employees
Medicaid
property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans
income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates
wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3]
Joint and family-related rights:
joint filing of bankruptcy permitted
joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records
family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
domestic violence intervention
access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods
Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens
Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime
Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse
Court notice of probate proceedings
Domestic violence protection orders
Existing homestead lease continuation of rights
Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption
Funeral and bereavement leave
Joint adoption and foster care
Joint tax filing
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Legal status with stepchildren
Making spousal medical decisions
Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation
Right of survivorship of custodial trust
Right to change surname upon marriage
Right to enter into prenuptial agreement
Right to inheritance of property
Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege)
For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse's benefits, including:
Social Security pension
veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing
survivor benefits for federal employees
survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers
additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease
$100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty
continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits
renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse
continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances
payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death
making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 07-08-2012 6:25 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 07-09-2012 6:24 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 150 (667526)
07-09-2012 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by frako
07-09-2012 3:06 AM


Re: 'Re: Benefits and Visiting Rights]
What I (abe: said) was that straight couples who had these private contracts had same rights as gays. Usually it involved two married people who's former spouse was either deceased or no longer with them.

This happened to be the case with one of my sisters, that here first husband was deceased.

Edited by Buzsaw, : clarify


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by frako, posted 07-09-2012 3:06 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by vimesey, posted 07-09-2012 9:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1010 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


(3)
Message 134 of 150 (667528)
07-09-2012 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by PaulK
07-09-2012 2:25 AM


Re: Rights, Etc.
One of the most important benefits of marriage is to be recognised as next-of-kin - and hospital visiting rights can be denied on the basis that a gay partner is "only a friend", not a relative.

I have to say that on a personal level this is one of the most important issues in the marriage-equality discussion (I recognize that it is only one of many, as Frako listed above).

At risk of arguing from anecdote, I would like to mention something that happened to friends of ours several years ago. Dear friends of our family are a same-sex couple that have been together for over 40 years. In 2001 one had a heart attack and had to have bypass surgery. Long story short, we waited and watched for almost two days while he waited not even knowing if his loved one was alive or dead. It took that long to contact a family member who could sign and fax the permission needed. It ultimately ended as well as could be, and they took legal steps to insure that next time it wouldn't happen.

I am convinced that had anyone been there to see even a fragment of the terror and sadness our beloved friend endured while waiting, the issue of gay marriage would become a no-brainer. My wife and I were sincerely afraid that the stress alone was going to kill him. It was physically painful for us, just as friends. That is the event that comes to mind whenever anyone tries to use the 'they want special rights' or 'they already have the same rights as the rest of us' argument.

Just as a point of comparison, when my wife had a medical emergency and was taken to the ER, I was talking to a doctor five minutes after parking the car. No one checked my id, no one asked to see a marriage license, or legal document. I just said I was her husband and was directed to the doctor.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2012 2:25 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 933
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 135 of 150 (667533)
07-09-2012 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
07-09-2012 6:24 AM


Re: 'Re: Benefits and Visiting Rights]
Buzsaw, you seem to be saying that straight couples who are not married have the same rights as gay couples who are not married.

They do share a whole bunch of rights, that's true (subject to some exceptions), but there is one huge great right that unmarried straight couples have, which unmarried gay couples don't have - the right to get married, and to acquire that great long list of benefits which frako listed for you.

That's the point Buz - you can't even say that unmarried straight couples and gay couples have equal rights - they don't.

Edited by vimesey, : tidied up the grammer


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 07-09-2012 6:24 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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