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Author Topic:   Supreme Court upholds Obamacare
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 98 (667823)
07-12-2012 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ooh-child
07-12-2012 12:36 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
I gather from the article that this was a blast fax w/ a 4% response rate. How accurate can those numbers really be? Color me skeptical.
You gotta be careful with any survey. For all we know, only the docs who were already pissed off were the ones who took the survey. I don't know if 4% is a good return or not. I'm not asking you to drop any skepticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ooh-child, posted 07-12-2012 12:36 PM ooh-child has not replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2863 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


(2)
Message 77 of 98 (667824)
07-12-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 1:48 PM


Re: recent data on fleeing Canadians
Meh. Apples and Oranges. Those countries have a fraction of the population that we do.
First, that not true. Germanys 80 million+ citizens is hardly a fraction. Neither is britains 60 mil+.
Second, why do you think that population size matter? Really, tell me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 1:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 2:42 PM Shield has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 98 (667825)
07-12-2012 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Shield
07-12-2012 2:03 PM


Re: recent data on fleeing Canadians
Meh. Apples and Oranges. Those countries have a fraction of the population that we do.
First, that not true. Germanys 80 million+ citizens is hardly a fraction. Neither is britains 60 mil+.
Well, those fractions would be about 1/4 and 1/5, respectively.
Second, why do you think that population size matter? Really, tell me.
It seems straight forward to me that the more people you've got to take care of, the harder its going to be. Should I think otherwise?
Only two countries have more people than the US; China and India (which have about 5x and 4x the population of the US, respectively) How's their healthcare rank? According to the WHO ranking, China is 144th and India 112th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Shield, posted 07-12-2012 2:03 PM Shield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Shield, posted 07-12-2012 2:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2863 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 79 of 98 (667827)
07-12-2012 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 2:42 PM


Re: recent data on fleeing Canadians
What, do you think, that theres a fixed number of doctors, nurses, facilities etc., per country?
China and India (which have about 5x and 4x the population of the US, respectively)
China has a per capita GDP of $5,413, India's $3,693 and the US? $48,386. See, thats why.
Germany has a rather more comparable GDP per capita at $43,741.
Comparing US healthcare to China or Indias, is comparing apple and oranges.. Comparing US healthcare with western europe healthcare makes sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 2:42 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 3:05 PM Shield has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 98 (667829)
07-12-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Shield
07-12-2012 2:55 PM


Re: recent data on fleeing Canadians
China has a per capita GDP of $5,413, India's $3,693 and the US? $48,386. See, thats why.
Germany has a rather more comparable GDP per capita at $43,741.
Does Germany have the same "1%" problem that the US has? What's the numbers for the people in the bottom 5% or so look like? How many poor, uneducated, and/or overweight people does Germany have? How's the environment compare? Geographical distribution? Population density?
There's a shit-pile of variables...
Comparing US healthcare to China or Indias, is comparing apple and oranges.. Comparing US healthcare with western europe healthcare makes sense.
Well I disagree and I'm not just going to take your word for it. ABE Clarification: I don't mean that I disagree that comparing to China or India is apples to oranges. I disagree with the second sentence.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Shield, posted 07-12-2012 2:55 PM Shield has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 81 of 98 (667830)
07-12-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 12:35 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
So? Does that make their complaints unfounded?
It makes their complaints irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 3:20 PM Taq has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 98 (667831)
07-12-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Taq
07-12-2012 3:08 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
So? Does that make their complaints unfounded?
It makes their complaints irrelevant.
I think they're still interesting. We kinda need the doctors in order to have healthcare...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Taq, posted 07-12-2012 3:08 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Jon, posted 07-12-2012 3:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 92 by Taq, posted 07-12-2012 7:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 98 (667832)
07-12-2012 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 3:20 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
We kinda need the doctors in order to have healthcare...
We don't need those doctors, though.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 3:26 PM Jon has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 98 (667833)
07-12-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Jon
07-12-2012 3:22 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
We kinda need the doctors in order to have healthcare...
We don't need those doctors, though.
How do you know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Jon, posted 07-12-2012 3:22 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Jon, posted 07-12-2012 4:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
PsychMJC
Member (Idle past 1302 days)
Posts: 36
From: Modesto, California
Joined: 11-30-2007


Message 85 of 98 (667834)
07-12-2012 3:35 PM


4%? Really?
A larger percentage of the US population thinks the world is going to end in 2012. Those number hardly seem like something to worry about, especially after you've read their methodology.

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 86 of 98 (667837)
07-12-2012 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 1:48 PM


Re: recent data on fleeing Canadians
You berate Buz for not having a source and when a source is provided you Poison the Well.
Poison the well? Really? Maybe you should look up what that really means.
The Fraser Institute is a conservative, libertarian-right organization. Do you dispute this? They have history of attacking the canadian health care system. Do you dispute this?
This organization you used as a source has no source for their data other than themselves. I have presented facts about the organization and the horrendous methodology they have used to reach the conclusions they wanted to reach. Again, this is not research, this is propaganda.
Which was your methodology as well. Buz made a claim that you wanted to prove wrong so you claim you refuted it by Googling up some data from ~15 years ago
But you have presented nothing to refute those sources or to show that it is different today. Must I repeat again. YOUR SOURCE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT CANADIANS COMING TO THE USA OR WHY THEY WENT OUT OF CANADA.
This report does not support the contention that Canadians are coming to the USA in droves for medical care. Please show me how it supports that position.
Have you done any research about US citizens traveling abroad for healthcare? Go ahead do some research we are talking about millions of people.
Their report has methodological issues and puts forward a number of assumptions that the data can not support.
From the report.
quote:
Among the consequences of poor access to health care in
Canada is the reality that some Canadians will ultimately
receive the care they require outside of the country. Some of
these patients will have been sent out of country by the public
health care system due to a lack of available resources or the
fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided
in their home jurisdiction. Others will have chosen to leave
Canada in response to concerns about quality (Walker et al.,
2009); to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of
waiting for care such as worsening of their condition, poorer
outcomes following treatment, disability, or death (Esmail,
2009); or simply to avoid delay
Look at those references. It is the Fraser Institute. Esmail is the author of this report. Please go to those articles and show me where they support this conclusion. Both of these references read like propaganda with hard data lacking sorely.
You forgot the biggest factor: their results don't agree with your preconceived notion. Better attack the source!
So you expect everyone to accept everything your present uncritically? I see you have nothing to support their methodology or conclusions.
Actually, a better percentage would be that of those seeking medical attention rather than that of the entire population.
Why? So you think 43,000 is a large % of what ever you want it to be a percentage of? Again do research on US citizens traveling abroad for health care and once again. YOUR SOURCE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT CANADIANS COMING TO THE USA
Of the times that people went to other countries, what percentage do you think were to the US? More than 90%?
I have no idea there is no data presented to reach any conclusions. BTW, you did read in my last post about Ontario working with US hospitals didn't you? Would you consider that a failing of Canadian healthcare?
Meh. Apples and Oranges. Those countries have a fraction of the population that we do.
So the US should expect worse healthcare because we are bigger? If you are going to make an assertion like this please back it up with a cogent argument.
So any evidence at all that Canadians are coming over to the US in droves for healthcare? Any evidence at all that a significant percentage of Canadians prefer the US system as opposed to theirs?
Why? You want to poison some more wells?
Well as those are thearguments you are attempting to make, it would behoove you to provide some evidence. Your source did not support either of these contentions.
Showing bias and lack of support for your argument is not poisoning the well. It is a rational argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 1:48 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 98 (667839)
07-12-2012 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 3:26 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
How do you know?
Because political views have nothing to do with a person's medical abilities.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 3:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 4:29 PM Jon has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 98 (667841)
07-12-2012 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Jon
07-12-2012 4:14 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
Because political views have nothing to do with a person's medical abilities.
Wait... then how would these doctors' political views mean that we don't need them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Jon, posted 07-12-2012 4:14 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Jon, posted 07-12-2012 8:27 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 89 of 98 (667842)
07-12-2012 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2012 12:05 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
Number of doctors in USA
661, 400
Source
Number responding to survey
699
Oh my god. You expect this survey to have any semblance of credibility?
This is without even looking at how the answers they received do not support their conclusions.
I think your preconceived beliefs have overtaken your ability to examine data critically.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2012 4:40 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 97 by hooah212002, posted 07-19-2012 1:30 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 98 (667843)
07-12-2012 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Theodoric
07-12-2012 4:39 PM


Re: The Doctors' Opinions
I think your preconceived beliefs have overtaken your ability to examine data critically.
Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Theodoric, posted 07-12-2012 4:39 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 07-12-2012 4:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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