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Author Topic:   Obama will not win a second term
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 166 of 311 (669085)
07-26-2012 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
07-12-2012 12:14 AM


Her husband is a Phd engineer working for caterpillar. He blames all of cat's problems with the union striking on the health care reform....
quote:
Workers at Caterpillar have gone on strike as they try to negotiate a new union contract. Despite making record profits last year, and being on pace to break that record again this year, the company is insisting on a long pay freeze for all workers but not the executives, of course.
More at source
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 07-12-2012 12:14 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 1:30 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 167 of 311 (669108)
07-27-2012 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Minnemooseus
07-26-2012 8:11 PM


I know. He's an executive at Cat, or something like that. He's the guy that interviews and decides who comes, who stays, and who goes. And he is absolutely convinced obamacare will bankrupt Cat. He also calls those machinists lazy bastards.
This is why I'm still depressed from our visit to their place. They live their sweet lives toward the top of the food chain and they look down and see everyone below them as lazy bastards.
I've never been more depressed. That sociopathic son of a bitch Romney...
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-26-2012 8:11 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Jon, posted 07-27-2012 6:01 AM Taz has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 311 (669117)
07-27-2012 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Taz
07-27-2012 1:30 AM


They live their sweet lives toward the top of the food chain and they look down and see everyone below them as lazy bastards.
Luckily us 'lazy bastards' outnumber folks like your brother-in-law.
And that means a lot in a democracy.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 1:30 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2012 12:44 PM Jon has replied
 Message 178 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 4:11 PM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 311 (669149)
07-27-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Jon
07-27-2012 6:01 AM


Luckily us 'lazy bastards' outnumber folks like your brother-in-law.
A substantial number of 'us' think and vote just like the brother-in-law.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Jon, posted 07-27-2012 6:01 AM Jon has replied

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 Message 170 by Jon, posted 07-27-2012 1:23 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 311 (669151)
07-27-2012 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by NoNukes
07-27-2012 12:44 PM


Then I guess 'we' will get exactly what 'we' want, won't 'we'?
Democracy in action.
Edited by Jon, : .

Love your enemies!

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 311 (669153)
07-27-2012 2:40 PM


you didn't build that
I'm not sure I fully understand the point that Obama was making...
quote:
If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen...
The quote is a little off, and its better to hear it straight. Here's a youtube clip of that part:
Its clear to me that the "that" he was referring to was the infrastructure, i.e. the roads and bridges, and not the business itself.
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides. But we all do that regardless of whether or not we've created a successful business. And businesses pay their far share of taxes towards building that infrastructure. So, its not the infrastructure that builds the business, somebody has to go out and do the work. And the businesses that are successful come from people who are smart and/or work hard.
But I don't see how the fact that infrastructure was used means that it wasn't the smartness and hard work of the person who built the business that allowed the business to emerge.
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
So what is Obama even talking about?

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2012 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 173 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2012 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 172 of 311 (669154)
07-27-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 2:40 PM


didn't pay a cent
CS writes:
And businesses pay their far share of taxes towards building that infrastructure.
"Fair share"? C'mon, CS, you already know this stuff . . .
quote:
Over Two-Thirds Of Corporations Pay No Federal Corporate Income Tax
According to a recent analysis of nearly 300 Fortune 500 companies by the Citizens for Tax Justice, the average company was paying just 18.3 percent in taxes -- a little more than half the official rate. And by using techniques like industry subsidies, stock option packages, and moving assets overseas where they can't be taxed, 30 companies mentioned in the report -- including Wells Fargo, Verizon, Boeing and General Electric -- didn't pay a cent in federal taxes in 2008, 2009 or 2010, the report found.
Over Two-Thirds Of Corporations Pay No Federal Corporate Income Tax | HuffPost Impact

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 3:20 PM dronestar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(5)
Message 173 of 311 (669155)
07-27-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 2:40 PM


Re: you didn't build that
And the businesses that are successful come from people who are smart and/or work hard.
And also lucky, and also lived in the right culture where the technologies were available to enact that vision. If you came up with the idea for Facebook in 1776, you were basically fucked, right?
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
Really? I see plenty of business owners who ascribe their success purely to their own hard work, recognizing no contribution but their own, in order to justify evading taxation. Money is what it's all about - when you say "I built my business with no help from anybody" its in order to go on to say "therefore, taxing me is punishing success."
It's as stupid as when Craig Nelson recently said "I've been on food stamps and welfare. Anybody help me out? No." You mean, besides with the food stamps and welfare?
And businesses pay their far share of taxes towards building that infrastructure.
Well, that's sort of the question, are businesses paying their fair share? Recently the CEO of Corning, Susan Ford, complained to Congress that corporate income taxes are too high. Corning paid a Federal income tax rate of 0%. That's right, they paid nothing. Actually they got money back, so they had a net tax rate of -0.2%.
Less than nothing is too high? Corning is hardly alone in that; Two-thirds of American corporations pay zero Federal income tax whatsoever.
Fair share? I don't see it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 3:26 PM crashfrog has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 311 (669156)
07-27-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by dronestar
07-27-2012 3:01 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
"Fair share"? C'mon, CS, you already know this stuff . . .
quote:
Over Two-Thirds Of Corporations Pay No Federal Corporate Income Tax
I wanted to talk about what Obama meant, not really defend the ultimate accuracy of everthing I wrote in that post, but; Not all businesses are corporations and not all taxes are federal income taxes.
So, on to the discussion: what was the point Obama was making?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2012 3:01 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2012 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 311 (669157)
07-27-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by crashfrog
07-27-2012 3:01 PM


Re: you didn't build that
What was the point Obama was making?
And also lucky, and also lived in the right culture where the technologies were available to enact that vision. If you came up with the idea for Facebook in 1776, you were basically fucked, right?
I'm sure there's plenty of luck involved, but starting the right business in the right place in the right time is part of being smart, imho.
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
Really?
Maybe its just me.
I see plenty of business owners who ascribe their success purely to their own hard work, recognizing no contribution but their own, in order to justify evading taxation. Money is what it's all about - when you say "I built my business with no help from anybody" its in order to go on to say "therefore, taxing me is punishing success."
Are they really implying that they didn't need any infrastructure for their business to work?
Well, that's sort of the question, are businesses paying their fair share? Recently the CEO of Corning, Susan Ford, complained to Congress that corporate income taxes are too high. Corning paid a Federal income tax rate of 0%. That's right, they paid nothing. Actually they got money back, so they had a net tax rate of -0.2%.
Less than nothing is too high? Corning is hardly alone in that; Two-thirds of American corporations pay zero Federal income tax whatsoever.
Fair share? I don't see it.
There's other taxes besides Federal Corporate Income Tax.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2012 3:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 176 of 311 (669160)
07-27-2012 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 3:20 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
CS writes:
I wanted to talk about what Obama meant, not really defend the ultimate accuracy of everthing I wrote in that post
You are writing "ultimate accuracy" like we are quibbling over symantic nuance. To confirmopposite to your previous assertiontoo many corporations do NOT pay their fair share of taxes.
CS writes:
what was the point Obama was making?
If you are not expecting Obama or us to really defend the ultimate accuracy of everything he stated in the video, then it seems you already understand the spirit of his assertions:
CS writes:
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides.
Yes, but to be extra clear, in addition to unfair reduced taxes, some corporation's success stem from subsidies or on-going corporate welfare. And many corporations use subsidized research and development originally meant for university studies and military projects for their success, e.g., velcro, microwaves, internet, etc

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 4:10 PM dronestar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 311 (669161)
07-27-2012 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by dronestar
07-27-2012 3:56 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
You are writing "ultimate accuracy" like we are quibbling over symantic nuance. To confirmopposite to your previous assertiontoo many corporations do NOT pay their fair share of taxes.
Yes, but to be extra clear, in addition to unfair reduced taxes, some corporation's success stem from subsidies or on-going corporate welfare. And many corporations use subsidized research and development originally meant for university studies and military projects for their success, e.g., velcro, microwaves, internet, etc
I don't doubt that, but Obama wasn't talking about corporations. He was talking about individuals who have started a successful business.
Do you really think his point had to do with corporate taxes and all that?
If you are not expecting Obama or us to really defend the ultimate accuracy of everything he stated in the video, then it seems you already understand the spirit of his assertions:
But I don't, and that's why I'm asking. If you're not here to help make sense of his point, then gtfo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2012 3:56 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 4:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 180 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2012 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 178 of 311 (669162)
07-27-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Jon
07-27-2012 6:01 AM


Jon writes:
Luckily us 'lazy bastards' outnumber folks like your brother-in-law.
And that means a lot in a democracy.
This is the scary part. Reports have continuously shown that extreme right wing people like tea party members are at the bottom of the food chain and unemployed.
Poorer people tend to be religious, and the more religious tend to think conservative.
Liberals tend to be in the middle somewhere. In fact, I would argue that true liberals are dying out, and that we will be extinct in a couple more generations. Today's liberals are really moderates.
This is not the only instance where "lazy bastards" cry bloody murder over "lazy bastards".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Jon, posted 07-27-2012 6:01 AM Jon has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(2)
Message 179 of 311 (669163)
07-27-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 4:10 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
CS writes:
I don't doubt that, but Obama wasn't talking about corporations. He was talking about individuals who have started a successful business.
I've watched his whole speech many times now. Yes, I agree with you that he was talking about people like me. I started my business with $200. That's all I was willing to put into it. It is now bringing in for me an extra income on average of $1200 to 1500 a week. My business depends heavily on the internet, computers, tablets, smartphones, roads, bridges, and (surprise surprise) the collective knowledge of electronics of those who came before me. At no time have I ever pretended I got here on my own. That's why I agree with Obama completely.
This is why the fox news section with the 2 little girls annoy the hell out of me. Did those girls build the sidewalk? Did those girls invent lemonade? Did those girls grow the wood to build their table?
Added by edit.
By the way, before we go on, could you please say in clear and concise words that you concede that when Obama said "you didn't build that" he was referring to the American infrastructure? Just humor me and say it so I can continue to assume you're not a conservative liar.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 5:03 PM Taz has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 180 of 311 (669164)
07-27-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 4:10 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
CS writes:
Do you really think his point had to do with corporate taxes and all that?
No, I added those points to help you see your general takeaway from his video was correct:
CS writes:
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 5:06 PM dronestar has not replied

  
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