Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Obama will not win a second term
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 181 of 311 (669165)
07-27-2012 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Taz
07-27-2012 4:19 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
I've watched his whole speech many times now. Yes, I agree with you that he was talking about people like me. I started my business with $200. That's all I was willing to put into it. It is now bringing in for me an extra income on average of $1200 to 1500 a week. My business depends heavily on the internet, computers, tablets, smartphones, roads, bridges, and (surprise surprise) the collective knowledge of electronics of those who came before me. At no time have I ever pretended I got here on my own.
What kind of taxes do you pay? Isn't your business contributing to the infrastructure?
That's why I agree with Obama completely.
I don't think that anybody thinks that they could have built their business without any infrastructure. That's why I don't get what he's talking about.
This is why the fox news section with the 2 little girls annoy the hell out of me. Did those girls build the sidewalk? Did those girls invent lemonade? Did those girls grow the wood to build their table?
No, but the sidewalk, lemonade, and wood existed regardless of any business venture they went on, and everybody has access to those already. Its the fact that they were smart and worked hard that made their business.
By the way, before we go on, could you please say in clear and concise words that you concede that when Obama said "you didn't build that" he was referring to the American infrastructure? Just humor me and say it so I can continue to assume you're not a conservative liar.
From Message 171:
quote:
Its clear to me that the "that" he was referring to was the infrastructure, i.e. the roads and bridges, and not the business itself.
At about 0:46 in that video I linked to, he says it a little differently than the quote I found:
"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that."
He stumbles right after "business"... he actually says: "Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business... that, you didn’t build that."
He was clearly refering to building the roads and bridges.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 4:19 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Jon, posted 07-27-2012 5:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 188 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 5:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 311 (669166)
07-27-2012 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by dronestar
07-27-2012 4:30 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
CS writes:
Do you really think his point had to do with corporate taxes and all that?
No, I added those points to help you see your general takeaway from his video was correct:
CS writes:
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides.
Okay, so then maybe we can move on to the actual source of my confusion and the point I was making?
quote:
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides. But we all do that regardless of whether or not we've created a successful business. And businesses pay their far share of taxes towards building that infrastructure. So, its not the infrastructure that builds the business, somebody has to go out and do the work. And the businesses that are successful come from people who are smart and/or work hard.
But I don't see how the fact that infrastructure was used means that it wasn't the smartness and hard work of the person who built the business that allowed the business to emerge.
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
So what is Obama even talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2012 4:30 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 183 of 311 (669167)
07-27-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 5:03 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
Its the fact that they were smart and worked hard that made their business.
That and having sidewalks, lemonade, and wood, among other things.
I don't think that anybody thinks that they could have built their business without any infrastructure.
Maybe not; but there are plenty of people who think they don't have to credit infrastructure's contribution to their business.
Cognitive dissonance that is.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 5:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 5:30 PM Jon has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 311 (669170)
07-27-2012 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Jon
07-27-2012 5:14 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
Its the fact that they were smart and worked hard that made their business.
That and having sidewalks, lemonade, and wood, among other things.
The girls down the street had those exact same things. How come they don't have a successful business too?
Everybody has those things, its when smart people work hard that businesses emerge.
Maybe not; but there are plenty of people who think they don't have to credit infrastructure's contribution to their business.
I don't think so. We all pay taxes towards those things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Jon, posted 07-27-2012 5:14 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Taq, posted 07-27-2012 5:34 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 185 of 311 (669171)
07-27-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
07-12-2012 4:19 PM


Bug frog, we were all sure Bush was going to lose to back in 2004. You remember that? Bush's ratings were in the 30s. Every major news network hinted that he was a 1 term president. Everyone on here said there was no chance in hell he would get a second term. And yet there he was a clear winner.
Believe me, right now Romney scares the hell out of me. And I've fallen in love with Obama. But there are just too many disinfo out there that people believe in. We're doomed
I don't get it. A large amount of Democrats ended up feeling let down and duped by Obama, stating that he's essentially Bush the Sequel.
Four years ago you loathed the man. Why the change?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 07-12-2012 4:19 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 5:44 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 186 of 311 (669172)
07-27-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 5:30 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
Everybody has those things, its when smart people work hard that businesses emerge.
No one is disagreeing that hard working people create great businesses. What Obama was pointing out is that they would not have that business if it were not for the infrastructure that government has built. Government supplies the tools that people need to make a strong businesses.
I don't think so. We all pay taxes towards those things.
Well, those of us who don't have overseas tax shelters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 5:30 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by RAZD, posted 07-27-2012 10:17 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(2)
Message 187 of 311 (669173)
07-27-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Hyroglyphx
07-27-2012 5:32 PM


Hyroglyphx, aka... what the hell was your old name? writes:
I don't get it. A large amount of Democrats ended up feeling let down and duped by Obama, stating that he's essentially Bush the Sequel.
That's because a large amount of democrats expected miracles.
I'm talking from the perspective of (1) an ex-cop, (2) a researcher, (3) an engineer, and (4) a business owner. From my experiences in life, one single man can't do miracles, especially when congress is run by the part of NO.
Four years ago you loathed the man. Why the change?
I watch a lot of news, speeches, etc. I pay attention to people's words when they talk. You can say I've fallen in love with Obama. I see a lot of genuineness in him.
On the other hand, I am convinced Romney is a functional sociopath. He made hundreds of millions by ruining thousands of people's lives. He doesn't remember leading a gang of boys to assault a gay kid in school, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. By the way, rapists also often don't remember their victims. That's why victims often are surprised when their rapists don't recognize them in court.
I know, I know, you can say it's all politics. And I agree. We may joke all day about how all politicians are liars and all of that, but in the end we gotta use the best evidence we have and evaluate our options. Unlike tea partiers who make up bullshit about Obama (anti-christ, secret muslim agent, communist, etc.), I have real reasons to believe Romney is a functional sociopath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-27-2012 5:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-27-2012 6:20 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 188 of 311 (669174)
07-27-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 5:03 PM


Re: didn't pay a cent
CS writes:
Isn't your business contributing to the infrastructure?
All businesses contribute to the infrastructure... except Bain Capital. That company took away from the infrastructure.
I don't think that anybody thinks that they could have built their business without any infrastructure.
Well, it's one of those things that are obvious once you pointed it out. But before you pointed it out, most people wouldn't even think about it.
Try to think of it like this. Can you think of anyone who will ever deny that we owe algebra to the arabs? How often does any of us think back to attribute that entire field of mathematics to the arabic culture?
Or look at how we breathe. It's called air. Yet, most people don't even give it a second thought on most days. Why do some teachers mention it every once in a while?
Facebook was a great idea that made someone very rich. But would it have worked back in the 1950s? At some point, people need to be reminded that it was the government that funded and built the internet, and the bill that made that possible was called the Gore Bill.
I still don't see what you're arguing here. Obama reminded people that all businesses owe something or other to the American infrastructure, a teacher somewhere in the past, a helping hand, etc. What the hell is wrong with that?
No, but the sidewalk, lemonade, and wood existed regardless of any business venture they went on, and everybody has access to those already. Its the fact that they were smart and worked hard that made their business.
Did you actually watch that segment? The fox people and those girls made it sound like Obama said they didn't build that business. Are you trying to defend liars?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 5:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 189 of 311 (669176)
07-27-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2012 3:26 PM


Re: you didn't build that
What was the point Obama was making?
That you can't say "I did it all by myself" and shirk your responsibility to the common good.
Are they really implying that they didn't need any infrastructure for their business to work?
No, they're implying that they got theirs, Jack, so everybody else can fuck off and die.
I mean, you've got conservative economists like Greg Mankiw literally making the case that taxing people, especially the successful, is flat-out immoral. (A), you've got to tax the well-off because that's who has money, and (B) the declining marginal utility of money makes a strong mathematical case that taxing people who have much is a lot more effective (and moral) than otherwise, because the well-off get much less use out of every marginal dollar. But to even have the debate on those terms ignores the fact that the well-off owe us for their success, due to the enormous social contribution to the infrastructure that made that success possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 3:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by cavediver, posted 07-30-2012 12:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 190 of 311 (669177)
07-27-2012 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Taz
07-27-2012 5:44 PM


That's because a large amount of democrats expected miracles.
Miracles, or just owning up to the campaign promises? Don't write checks your butt can't cash, as they say.
Obameter: Campaign Promises that are Promise Broken | PolitiFact
But that's not why they're pissed. He's a Nobel Peace Prize recipient and is every bit the warlord GWB was.
I watch a lot of news, speeches, etc. I pay attention to people's words when they talk. You can say I've fallen in love with Obama. I see a lot of genuineness in him.
That's odd, because for the exact same reasons, I see him as nothing more than a sycophant who is ONLY in his position on account of his orations.
On the other hand, I am convinced Romney is a functional sociopath.
Well, no argument from me that Romney is a huge doucher, but Romney and Obama are essentially the same people from a political point of view.
I just don't understand what happened. If I recall, I remember you not caring very much for him citing that you both were from Illinois and knew he was shady, for lack of a better term.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 5:44 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 7:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 196 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-29-2012 12:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 198 by Buzsaw, posted 07-29-2012 6:40 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 191 of 311 (669179)
07-27-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Hyroglyphx
07-27-2012 6:20 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:
Miracles, or just owning up to the campaign promises? Don't write checks your butt can't cash, as they say.
PolitiFact
I looked through that list, and every single thing on that list requires congressional approval. I'm sure Obama is very pleased knowing you think he's the absolute dictator of this country, because that's the only way he could impliment those things without congressional approval.
t that's not why they're pissed. He's a Nobel Peace Prize recipient and is every bit the warlord GWB was.
You kidding? So, Obama was responsible for... other people choosing him for the Nobel Peace Prize?
So, if I were to declare you the most homosexual man on Earth, would it be fair for you to be gang raped by whole gangs of homosexuals? After all, they could just say you won the title for being the most homosexual man on the planet.
I just don't understand what happened. If I recall, I remember you not caring very much for him citing that you both were from Illinois and knew he was shady, for lack of a better term.
I know. Like I said, Obama won me over. I'm not going to try to convince you since this is a personal thing. May be Obama had some kind of voodoo thing that changed my mind about him.
But I know what you mean. Most of my liberal friends are saying they think Obama failed big time as a president. Again, I see the problem here as having too much expectations in the first place. Back when I still was not happy that Obama won the nomination, I already knew that he couldn't work miracles. I was realistic then, and I'm realistic now. The only thing that's changed is my personal attitude about him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-27-2012 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by onifre, posted 07-28-2012 6:44 PM Taz has replied
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 07-29-2012 11:36 AM Taz has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(5)
Message 192 of 311 (669198)
07-27-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Taq
07-27-2012 5:34 PM


it's not just infrastructure
Hi all,
No one is disagreeing that hard working people create great businesses. What Obama was pointing out is that they would not have that business if it were not for the infrastructure that government has built. Government supplies the tools that people need to make a strong businesses.
It's not just the infrastructure, it is also the broad cultural\social atmosphere that is protected by the military and what is allowed by regulations governing the interactions with other nations.
Those girls would not have had the same experience building a lemonade stand in Syria for instance.
The US government provides and protects an ecology in which business can thrive. Without the US government there would be no US economy.
This is a massive annual investment in business, and the US government deserves a dividend or a fair share of the resulting profits just as much as any investor does (including workers).
also see
The Daily Show with Trevor Noah - Season 27 - TV Series | Comedy Central US
and
The Daily Show with Trevor Noah - Season 27 - TV Series | Comedy Central US
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : daily show links

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Taq, posted 07-27-2012 5:34 PM Taq has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 193 of 311 (669290)
07-28-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Taz
07-27-2012 7:43 PM


Occupy or die
So, if I were to declare you the most homosexual man on Earth, would it be fair for you to be gang raped by whole gangs of homosexuals? After all, they could just say you won the title for being the most homosexual man on the planet.
Doesn't that sound like a reasonable analogy, you guys?
I know. Like I said, Obama won me over. I'm not going to try to convince you since this is a personal thing. May be Obama had some kind of voodoo thing that changed my mind about him.
But I know what you mean. Most of my liberal friends are saying they think Obama failed big time as a president. Again, I see the problem here as having too much expectations in the first place. Back when I still was not happy that Obama won the nomination, I already knew that he couldn't work miracles. I was realistic then, and I'm realistic now. The only thing that's changed is my personal attitude about him.
It starts to get very sad when you start to wonder, what then can be done? Why vote? Why pretend it matters? The only thing right now that makes any sense is the Occupy movements.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Taz, posted 07-27-2012 7:43 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Taz, posted 07-28-2012 11:02 PM onifre has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 194 of 311 (669311)
07-28-2012 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by onifre
07-28-2012 6:44 PM


Re: Occupy or die
onifre writes:
Doesn't that sound like a reasonable analogy, you guys?
I think it is. People have been criticizing Obama for winning the Nobel Peace Prize. This came as a surprise to Obama as much as everyone else. What about accepting it, you ask?
Let's look at his 2 choices.
(1) Not accepting the prize, which is practically the same thing as telling the Nobel committee to fuck off.
(2) Accepting the prize and piss off conservative liars.
He did the only thing he could do. He accepted the prize, give a speech on how he was humbled, and donated the money to charity.
Unless you could think of a better way to handle it, shut the hell up.
It's start to get very sad when you start to wonder, what then can be done? Why vote? Why pretend it matters? The only thing right now that makes any sense is the Occupy movements.
You serious?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by onifre, posted 07-28-2012 6:44 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by onifre, posted 07-28-2012 11:31 PM Taz has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 195 of 311 (669313)
07-28-2012 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Taz
07-28-2012 11:02 PM


Re: Occupy or die
I just felt your analogy was a bit off the wall.
You serious?
An organization of citizens working together to better the conditions for ourselves, started by us for us? Yeah I think that's better than relying on a president.
Globally, the occupy movements have been not only very effective, but peaceful for the most part and aggressive when they had to be. They've been a demonstration of the little guy uniting to go up against the big government (and without guns.)
I'd say that's the best hope so far. Citizens working together to get what they need and deserve.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Taz, posted 07-28-2012 11:02 PM Taz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024