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Author | Topic: Macro and Micro Evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:Only that what you have said is wrong. By the way, welcome to EvC (says I, being relatively new myself). Sorry if I sound rude.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Oh, grumble, grumble! If I actually have to start backing up my wild assertians.... Actually, I was going to add more, but holmes already answered better than I was going to.
What I was referring to is that there is no reason to expect to be able to see "macroevolution" in the laboratory - this is a slow, gradual process, and anything that would be seen in a laboratory would not be slow nor gradual, hence not evolution of the Darwinian sort. That said, there are examples of speciation events, especially involvining polypoloidy in botany, nylon-utilizing bacteria, and others that have been observed, as well as beneficial mutations of the sort that has to be information-increasing (a mutation in Italy that helps protect against artherioslerosis, a mutation in Africa (not sickle cell) that helps provide immunity against malaria without any deleterious effects). These things aren't considered "macro-evolution" by creationists, but they are excellent arguments against the attempts to say macro-evolution is impossible. And sorry if my initial post was a little out of line - there are several other message boards where a more combative style is expected, and sometimes I don't switch modes.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:This is, indeed, a common definition of species, and it is commonly used among biologists. However, this definition has several deficiencies: The main deficiency is that it only applies to sexually reproducing species. Species that reproduce asexually, such as most single celled organisms and some parthogenetic species of lizards, can not be distinguished by this definition (each individual is reproductively isolated). Also, reproductive isolation is not an either/or thing - there are varying degrees of reproductive isolation; there are examples of different looking "breeds" which nonetheless interbreed readily (like dogs), and examples of populations that interbreed occasionally but rarely, and examples of populations that never, ever interbreed in the wild but can sometimes interbreed in captivity to produce viable, fertile offspring. Worse, there are examples of ring species such as the herring gull and the Black-backed gull; in Britain they do not interbreed at all, they were considered different species, but as one travels across the arctic to the west, the herring gull readily interbreeds with a population of eastern North America, which interbreeds with a population of western North America, which interbreeds with a population of Siberia, which interbreeds with...the black-backed gull. So, are these one species or two? The point is that this definition of species, which is usually pretty useful, isn't too useful in certain situations. This is off topic of your post, but I should add that it is an integral part of evolution theory that populations should gradually differentiate and change into two or more species, and so it is a prediction that there should be examples where populations aren't quite different species, yet not quite the same species either. Creationism tries to invoke some sort of evolution like this, mostly to try to explain how so many "kinds' can fit into Noah's ark, but it is added in a rather ad hoc fashion.
quote:A mutation occurs in the genome, and so by definition is inheritable. Here is some information on this mutation. The point is that small changes will add up to big changes - unless there is something to prevent it. Creationists try to say this is impossible either by claiming that beneficial mutations are too rare or by saying that mutations cannot increase "information" (whatever that is) in the genome. The examples I provided show that this is simply false - there is nothing in principle that prevents small changes from eventually adding up to big changes. And you are right - it would be so nice if we can do all the necessary experiments in the laboratory. But evolution is too long a process - we cannot simply get the kind of significant macro-evolutionary change that creationists insist upon in a short amount of time (like in a human lifetime). The best we can do is show that each of the little pieces of the theory can individually be shown to work, and then hope that it's clear that each of the pieces, together add up to macro-evolution over the long term - unless someone can show why this is not possible. [This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 11-16-2003]
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:Sorry, but I tried to do a quick web search, and couldn't find a "nice and pretty" web page - I hope that this is good enough. But there are species, like Chlamydomonas that do not have different sexes (they are single celled, after all), and they do not have distinguished gametes (the cells are the gametes!). For a primitive multicellular example, the same page has the same type of situation for spirogyra. quote:As far as the evolution of the wing, the flying squirrel has the "half-a-wing" that creationists insist cannot exist. I can easily imagine a squirrel that is slightly fluffier, so has just a slightly less hard bump from a fall, slowly transforming to the flying squirrel's skin flaps, which can then slowly transform into a true, flapping wing. You don't believe it? I can imagine it in my head. How did it actually occur in the past? I don't know, but I believe the process is possible - I can conjure up a possibility. Could something similar happen to produce a bird from a dinosaur? How is this for a flying-squirrel type of intermediary? (Note that I suspect this creature is not an actual ancestor to birds - just an example to show intermediaries are possible!)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
You have not explained what prevents the small changes you call "micro-evolution" from evenutally adding up to a large change. Why can't the fins of a fish, through small gradual changes, become the limbs of a frog?
Acanthostega gunnari
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Natural selection and sexual selection are the mechanisms which produce evolutionary change. They do not prevent "micro-evolution" from becoming "macro-evolution".
Here is a tutorial on evolutionary biology. Read it and tell us what you think.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I have been involved in a similar discussion on another message board.
Since fossilization is such a rare occurrence, it's not great problem if there is a lack of fossils in any single lineage. We're pretty lucky to have any fossils at all. The strength of evolution lies in that we can make predictions about the transitionals if and when they are found. For example, take whales. There is no reason (based on Biblical creationism) that any fossils linking whales to more ancestral animals should be found. And if links are found (because God is such a whimsical character?), there's no reason why we shouldn't find a series, say, of fossils that "show" a direct evolutionary path directly from fish. But evolution makes specific predictions about transitionals. Whales are clearly mammals - they are warm blooded, bear live young, embryos are connected to a placenta, they nurse their young, their front flippers have five-finger skeletons that look for all the world like the hand bones in humans, except for relative proportion, and so on. So, one can make a prediction - if we are lucky enough, we will find a sequence of fossil animals that show intermediate characteristics between the terrestrial mammals and modern whales. Sure enough, such fossils have been found:
The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence No webpage found at provided URL: http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewissen.html Also note that the fossils occur in the correct order: more terrestrial species occur earlier than more whale-like species. Another prediction: no fossils will ever be found that will show "in-between" characteristics of fish and whales - that is, we will never find a sequence that connects whales directly with fish. Although not finding such things do not prove they never existed, it is note-worthy that all transitionals found to date confirm the traditional phylogenic tree - there were no truly bizarre discrepencies. Now, currently, as far as I know, the earliest bats date the the Eocene and are clearly bats. There is, as yet, no record of the evolutionary history of bats. But it is known that bats are mammals. Furthermore, there is taxonomic evidence that link bats to tree-shrews and primates:
Eutheria Prediction: if we are lucky, there will be a sequence of fossils linking early tree-dwelling mammals with modern bats. If such fossils are found, this will be yet another confirmatory piece of evidence for evolution. Prediction: we will never find a sequence of fossils that seem to link bats with, say, birds. Finding such fossils would pose grave problems for the theory of evolution. [Corrected a minor spelling error and a grammatical awkwardness.] [This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 11-28-2003]
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
This article shows the possible intermediate steps in producing an eye. It presents currently living species for examples of the suggested intermediate steps in order to show that the intermediate stages are, indeed, useful to the animal having them. (The article starts off with flight; eyes a little further down the page.)
Page not found - American Atheists If you have QuickTime or RealPlayer, this link has a 4 minute video explaining with models how a primitive eye could gradually become a better camera eye.
Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye I found these articles on this page, which has a few more links:
Account Suspended Incidentally, the topic of the evolution of eyes is being debated formally by Zhimbo and Joralex on this very board:
EvC Forum: Eye Evolution: Zhimbo vs Joralex
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