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Author Topic:   How did the Aborigines get to Australia?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 158 of 226 (669454)
07-30-2012 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Hi Portillo
Not really about Aborigines getting to Australia but ...
... Thats how fossils are made, with water and sediment. ...
How do you explain dessicated fossils aka naturally formed mummies?
... You find horseshoe crabs, shrimps and clams at the top of mountains. ...
... in layers showing multiple layers of mature growth deposited over thousands of years based on the maturity of the individual organisms fossilized.
How long did that flood last?
Why are there completely different marine ecologies on different mountains?
See Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?:
quote:
Evidence of multiple layers of mature marine environments on mountains is rather evidence of long ages -- ages to form mature marine environments, ages to cover them, ages for the other mature marine environments to form, and ages for the sedimentary basin to be pushed up into mountains by tectonic activity.
This thread is currently closed due to topic drift but can be reopened to discuss this further if you wish.
Seems to me that this is actually evidence against a biblical flood not for it, that even one sessile marine fossil (brachiopod for instance) with more than one year of maturity would conflict with a biblical flood, and this is a generally observed condition in many many layers -- care to explain?
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 159 of 226 (669473)
07-30-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Lithodid-Man
07-10-2012 1:12 PM


Re: My favorite "doozy"
Hi Lithodid-Man
... The author, Chris Ashcraft, suggests that the famous examples of placental/marsupial "twins" (thylacine/wolf, marsupial mole/golden mole, etc.) are actually the result of the original placental 'baramin' evolving pouches after they arrived in Australia. ...
So that's why the aboriginal people and emus have pouches, I always wondered ...
LOL

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 166 of 226 (669856)
08-04-2012 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Portillo
08-04-2012 12:48 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions, round 2
Hi Portillo,
It's a start, but you will need to pay a little more attention to the details.
Let me warn you that you will be confronted with evidence that you will find difficult to understand or assimilate, not because the evidence is difficult, but because it does not match your worldview. This is due to cognitive dissonance, something that affects anyone confronting evidence that does not match their worldview (see link for more on this or to discuss it).
... A global flood is a mechanism for rapid, massive, fossilization of billions of creatures. ...
.... and most of the fossil record just does not match this prediction. In science we say that such failed predictions mean the hypothesis is highly questionable and needs to be adjusted to better fit the evidence ....
RAZD writes:
How do you explain dessicated fossils aka naturally formed mummies?
There are some fossils being formed today, but large scale fossilization is not occuring ...
... and you completely avoided the question, so let me try again: how do you explain fossils that were formed by being completely dried out.
The mountains were underwater during the flood. How did these fossils get thousands of feet above sea level? They didnt climb up the mountain and bury themselves. They were smashed and entombed, under the ocean in mud, ...
Except that there are fossils that are delicate and preserved completely in their natural state -- fan coral and brachiopods for example (and both grow fixed to the bottom) -- that would be broken by such a process.
... and pushed up after the flood. After the flood, the mountains went up and the basins went down. So you have a complete reconfiguration of the topography and geography of the world. ...
Please cite chapter and verse where the bible states this happens. It needs to be specific, not someone's interpretation. Otherwise you are just invoking magic imagination to explain fantasy instead of using the real evidence.
... the mountains went up and the basins went down. So you have a complete reconfiguration of the topography and geography of the world. ...
Which is what science says occurs over millions of years. Curiously scientists have measured the current rates and compared them to the times needed to make the mountains we see, and there is more than enough time for this to occur through tested scientifically studied mechanisms, mechanisms that correlate between dates and mountain ranges all over the world ... mountain ranges that do NOT date to the same periods ALL fit this pattern.
If you have an issue with dates\time then I suggest you start at Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 and we can work on clearing that issue up first. The earth IS old, and it is time to accept that fact.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : ..
Edited by RAZD, : ...

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Portillo, posted 08-04-2012 12:48 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Portillo, posted 08-24-2012 8:38 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 181 of 226 (671935)
08-31-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Portillo
08-24-2012 8:38 PM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions, round 2
Hi Portillo, sorry for the delay.
RAZD writes:
Please cite chapter and verse where the bible states this happens.
In Psalm 104, it says "Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains." ...
But that is not what the question was about:
Message 166:
... and pushed up after the flood. After the flood, the mountains went up and the basins went down. So you have a complete reconfiguration of the topography and geography of the world. ...
Please cite chapter and verse where the bible states this happens.
Your answer does not state that the mountains pushed up after the flood, so this is actually you making up stuff, not anything quoted from the bible, yes?
... 95% of the fossil record is marine invertebrates. 95% of the remaining fossils are plants. The rest is mostly fish and insects. The land dwelling vertebrates make up less than 1% of the record. Is it any surprise that the planet is filled with water, marine fossils, sedimentary deposits and fossil graveyards? The planet is covered with evidence of a watery catastrophe.
Curiously a significant portion of that fossil record of marine life is inconsistent with catastrophic endings. Rather they show a gradual transition from generation to generation of mature ecologies growing on the deposits of previous generations. For instance brachiopods growing with their stalks attached to the shells of previous brachiopods, critters that spend a year in a larval stage before settling onto the bottom and building their first stalk\shell, critters that have growth rings in their shells showing lifetimes measured in decades on top of shells that took decades to form ... and that is but one of many such examples.
Please try again.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : there/their typo fixed (saw in roxrcool's post)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Portillo, posted 08-24-2012 8:38 PM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Portillo, posted 09-01-2012 2:34 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 185 by roxrkool, posted 09-02-2012 2:08 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 184 of 226 (671988)
09-01-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Portillo
09-01-2012 2:34 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions, round 2
Hi Portillo
"The mountains rose; and the valleys sank down".
Isnt that what you were asking? If the Bible says that the mountains rose and the basins sank down?
Yes. With specific wording to that effect, and that it was after the flood (as you claimed), so it is not a matter or interpretation.
What you quoted did not do that.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 186 of 226 (672054)
09-02-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Portillo
08-24-2012 8:43 PM


Re: Topic alert!
Hi Portillo
... a great land bridge that connected Indochina to Australia.
Never happened.
The Australian plate is moving towards the Indochina plate and there is a subduction zone between them. No land bridge.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Portillo, posted 08-24-2012 8:43 PM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Portillo, posted 09-05-2012 10:45 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 192 of 226 (672310)
09-06-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Portillo
09-05-2012 10:45 PM


Re: Topic alert!
Hi Portillo
If you mean the red circle, as dwise1 points out, you are looking in the wrong place -- the gap in question is further north.
As noted in Message 99
quote:
Hence causing what is known as the Wallace Line that divides species on one side from those on the other (except for those that could fly or swim the distance).
quote:
Alfred Russel Wallace, the so-called father of animal geography, formulated his ideas on evolution by natural selection while observing and collecting wildlife in the islands of Southeast Asia. He was particularly impressed by the sudden difference in bird families he encountered when he sailed some twenty miles east of the island of Bali and landed on Lombok. On Bali the birds were clearly related to those of the larger islands of Java and Sumatra and mainland Malaysia. On Lombok the birds were clearly related to those of New Guinea and Australia. He marked the channel between Bali and Lombok as the divide between two great zoogeographic regions, the Oriental and Australian. In his honor this dividing line, which extends northward between Borneo and Sulawesi, is still referred to today as Wallace's Line. (See the map below.)

You can also see this subduction zone trench formation continue along the east side of the Philippines, and another to the east that is the Mariana trench, the deepest part of ocean in the world.
If you want a land bridge here, you are going to need to wait for a while ...
That red line is the subduction zone between the colliding plates, and this formation means that there was no land bridge in this area. All the other islands do appear to be connected to either the Indonesian plate or the Australian plate by land bridges.
Enjoy
Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by dwise1, posted 09-07-2012 3:25 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 196 of 226 (672357)
09-07-2012 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by dwise1
09-07-2012 3:25 AM


land gap during last glacial maximum, no land bridge there
Hi dwise1
But what then of the Weber Line and Lydekker's Line?
In reality, there's an entire region, Wallacea with Wallace's Line as its western boundary and Weber's Line as the boundary for Australian mammals and Lydekker's Line as its eastern boundary.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of those, just the Wallace line. A good easily readable book about Wallace and biogeography is Song of the Dodo.
Certainly the gap between Wallace's Line and Weber's Line would have been mostly open water, where only organisms that can island hop along the string of islands from Timor to Bali, and then to Indonesia or Australia, could migrate along that path.
It would be interesting to have Dr Adequate do a post on this area and how it formed as a sort of recap of the geography formations covered in his wonderful Introduction To Geology thread: volcanic mountains, subduction zones, etc., and use biogeography as part of the "how do we know" section. You can see the subduction zone as the dark blue ribbon between Timor and Australia:
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : subduction zone

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by dwise1, posted 09-07-2012 3:25 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 201 of 226 (672525)
09-09-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Portillo
09-09-2012 3:02 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions, round 3
Hi Portillo,
Granny Magda hit most of the high points, but I'll add to it.
Many fossils are dated according to the rocks they are found in, the rocks are dated by the fossils that are found in them, and the fossils are sorted out according to their hypothetical evolutionary order. Thats circular reasoning.
Index fossils are dated by several means, and they sort themselves by changing evolutionary traits. Foraminifera for example:
Fossil Record of Foraminifera
quote:
The oldest fossil foraminifera, from the Cambrian, are simple agglutinated tubes. Calcareous microgranular and porcellaneous tests evolved in the Carboniferous, and calcareous hyaline tests in the Permian. Over time, each of these groups has evolved many different forms, including large complex tests associated with reefs. These groups of large species became abundant when reef environments were widespread, then suffered major extinction when world climate changed and reefs were decimated. The fusulinids were one such group. They had rice-grain shaped tests and evolved into numerous widespread species during the Permian but went extinct at the end of that period when a worldwide mass extinction also eliminated most other reef dwelling organisms.
The small size of most foraminifera may make them difficult to see, but it makes them much more useful than larger fossils for applications such as petroleum exploration, because there can be thousands of specimens in the small chips of rock collected when drilling a well. In addition, many species of foraminifera are geologically short-lived, and others are only found in specific environments, so a paleontologist can examine the specimens in a sample and determine the geologic age and environment when the rock formed. As a result, since the 1920's the oil industry has been a major employer of paleontologists who specialize in these microscopic fossils. It is unusual to drill an oil well without a paleontologist onsite to determine when the desired oil-bearing rock layer has been reached.*
* bold added for emphasis
Note that Glen Morton struggled with this issue:
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
Geology Dept article 3
quote:
If animals gradually change their shapes through time, perpetually giving birth to new species, then where are the fossil remains of transitional animals -- those unfortunate creatures that had to have existed during the demise of outmoded species and before the establishment of new ones? Where are all the "missing links" that, if the theory holds, should be abundant in the fossil record?
...
Drs. Tony Arnold (Ph.D., Harvard) and Bill Parker (Ph.D., Chicago) are the developers of what reportedly is the largest, most complete set of data ever compiled on the evolutionary history of an organism. The two scientists have painstakingly pieced together a virtually unbroken fossil record that shows in stunning detail how a single-celled marine organism has evolved during the past 66 million years. Apparently, it's the only fossil record known to science that has no obvious gaps -- no "missing links."
"It's all here -- a complete record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this organism has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."
*
...
The study focuses on the microscopic, fossilized remains of an organism belonging to a huge order of marine protozoans called foraminifera. Often heard shortened to "forams," the name comes from the Latin word foramen, or "opening." The organisms can be likened to amoebas wearing shells, perforated to allow strands of protoplasm to bleed through. The shell shapes range from the plain to the bizarre.
...
But it's the planktonic variety that chiefly interests Parker and Arnold. Unlike their oversized cousins, free-swimming forams are found wherever the oceans have, or had, currents -- in a word, everywhere. For nearly a century, geologists have used the animals' tiny, fossilized shells, found in abundance in marine and some terrestrial deposits, to help establish the age of sediments and to gain insight into prehistoric climates. *
* bold added for emphasis
The free floating species would, of course rise with the level of water during a flood and be spread globally if a flood occurred, AND they would all have mixed together during such a flood rather than be sorted into relative dated layers, one on top of another on top of another.
This PDF shows this relative dating pattern and the time periods they are associated with.
CHRONOSTRATIGRAPHY is the relative dating of rocks and sediments by their layers
BIOSTRATIGRAPHY is the relative dating of organisms, in this case forams, by their layers
Radiometric dating establishes real dates for parts of the chronostratigraphic layers
Correlating the relative dating methods results in index fossils, which are also correlated with the absolute dates from radiometric data.
These index fossils are also correlated with a similar pattern found for diatoms, a small floating algae that also forms a calciferous shell (you can buy diatomaceous earth for use in your garden to discourage slugs due to the sharp edges and spikes). You do not find forams and diatoms from different biostratigraphic zones in the same chronostratigraphic zones, which would be expected if there had been a flood.
This is not circular, because each stratigraphy is made independently of the other and then the two are correlated. This is like comparing tree rings from one tree to another, knowing the relative age of each ring compared to the rings next to it and correlating the seasonal patterns from one tree to the next.
... Thats how you get the mass fossilization of billions of marine invertebrates, you find smashed and squashed together in a frenzy all over the world. ...
Which does not explain where these fossils -- especially delicate ones like fan corals and brachiopods -- are not smashed and squashed, but buried gradually over several years. The brachiopods in particular (like the ones found on Mt Everest) grow on fragile stalks that anchor them to the bottom. They have growth rings like trees that show their ages ranging up to ~30 or 40 years. They are found growing attached to other brachiopod shells that had died and were resting on the bottom when the larval form of the brachiopod attached itself and started to grow it's stalk. They live as larval brachiopods for a year before attaching to the bottom.
The brachiopods are found in layers many feet deep that show a pattern of peaceful fully mature marine ecological growth of other plants and animals that extend over many many decades -- a pattern of growth that is impossible to form during a short duration flood. This pattern is found on Mt Everest: either the flood lasted centuries, if not millenia, or it is not responsible for these fossils on Mt Everest.
Which gets us back to how mountains rise up. If you cannot explain Mt Everest and brachiopods, then you should admit that the scientific explanation is better at accounting for the evidence.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : english
Edited by RAZD, : added Glen Morton note
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 206 of 226 (672642)
09-10-2012 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Panda
09-10-2012 8:41 AM


what's a fossil?
Hi Panda and dwise1,
Portillo writes:
"How long do fossils take to form? They are entombed by a catastrophe very rapidly"
It seems that Portillo may also think that fossilization is simply animals being encased.
Next up: soft tissue in fossils ... ?
Part of the problem is that "fossil" is not well defined here -- encased shells and casts and tests count as fossils even though the do not necessarily involve mineral replacement -- while mummies are ... ?
Sounds like something for another thread.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle clarity

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 208 of 226 (672815)
09-11-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by NoNukes
09-10-2012 11:28 AM


Catastrophic rapid entombment fossils
Just a thought in passing remembrance of this day in history ...
... if we want an example of catastrophic rapid entombment we only need to look at the towers and note that there should have been hundreds of fossils created by this terrible event, and yet not one (1) was found. Instead we found bodies in diffferent stages of being crushed to being atomized.
This should put an end to this concept, but I doubt it.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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