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Author Topic:   Manipulation of DNA by cells?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 15 of 36 (669416)
07-29-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Wounded King
07-20-2012 5:06 AM


Wounded King writes:
The simple answer is yes, such processes do exist. The most obvious example would be in the B and T cells of the immune system where the genome of individual cells are rearranged to form novel genetic combinations coding for antibodies. This process, V(D)J recombination, both selects a random combination of pre-existing genes coding for sections of the antibody, deleting those it doesn't use from the cell's genome, and also adds additional random sequences which vastly increase the variability of the resulting antibodies.
Do these processes, that deliberately alter the structure of the genome, indicate in some way a purposeful process?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 07-20-2012 5:06 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dr Jack, posted 07-30-2012 6:57 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 07-30-2012 12:58 PM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 18 of 36 (669596)
07-31-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Jack
07-30-2012 6:57 AM


Mr Jack writes:
It isn't just something that happens, it's a vital part of how the immune system functions. The random recombination produces a "library" of antibodies that will bind to almost any pathogen.
My question is are these "library" of antibodies binding to a pathogen in a random manner or some type of directed manner?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr Jack, posted 07-30-2012 6:57 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Taq, posted 07-31-2012 12:32 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 22 by Dr Jack, posted 08-01-2012 2:07 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 19 of 36 (669597)
07-31-2012 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
07-30-2012 12:58 PM


Taq writes:
With antibody production, we see the same thing. The random admixture between different gene sets to produce a single antibody results in a vast library of bindings sites. This is an advantageous system, so it is selected for.
When you say "selected for" are you saying these are directed functions for fitness?

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 Message 17 by Taq, posted 07-30-2012 12:58 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 20 by Taq, posted 07-31-2012 12:24 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 23 of 36 (669689)
08-01-2012 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taq
07-31-2012 12:32 PM


From the wiki segement writes:
(D)J recombination, also known as somatic recombination, is a mechanism of genetic recombination in the early stages of immunoglobulin (Ig) and T cell receptors (TCR) production of the immune system. V(D)J recombination takes place in the primary lymphoid tissue (the bone marrow for B cells, and Thymus for T cells).V(D)J recombination nearly randomly combines Variable, Diverse, and Joining gene segments of vertebrates, and because of its randomness in choosing different genes, is able to diversely encode proteins to match antigens from bacteria, viruses, parasites, dysfunctional cells such as tumor cells,[1] and pollens.
Shapiro in his book "Evolution: a view from the 21st century", defines natural genetic engineering as follows:
"The collective set of biochemical capabilities that cells have to restructure their genomes by cleaving, splicing, and synthesizing DNA chains. much as we do in modern biotechnology."
It seems to me that they are both describing the same process.
I am very much amazed that even though the process is said to be random, it appears that it is in fact a process that places the necessary genes where they are needed. Am I way off base on this?
The wiki artice says "nearly randomly combines..."
Why the "nearly" observation? Is it more than random?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 08-02-2012 6:27 AM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 25 of 36 (669778)
08-02-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
08-02-2012 6:27 AM


Mr Jack writes:
Wow: BH07 LUA - I've just generated a numberplate at random, but all the letters and numbers are in the right order and its a perfectly correct and valid numberplate.
Is your numberplate going to give you access to the computer site that requires a password?
It seems the random genes will give the needed access.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 08-02-2012 6:27 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Jack, posted 08-02-2012 5:26 PM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 27 of 36 (669813)
08-03-2012 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Jack
08-02-2012 5:26 PM


Mr Jack writes:
Random recombination produces vast numbers of different antibodies, so that when a novel pathogen enters the body chances are that one of the vast number of random antibodies will recognise the pathogen. The body then identifies this fact and mass produces the antibody.
When you say "chances are..." is that a random chance or is the body in some way "programmed" to recognise the pathogen?
Programmed may be a bad choice of words, but it is the best I can come up with at this time.
Also how does the body then produce the necessary antibody? It would seem that this could not be random, but "programmed" in some way.
I am not trying to be difficult. I think you may know my philsophy, that of "Creation Continium" per the Roman Catholic church, and that there is in fact a cause for all these wonderous events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Jack, posted 08-02-2012 5:26 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dr Jack, posted 08-03-2012 5:36 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 08-07-2012 11:48 AM shadow71 has not replied

  
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