Bears

In second amendment thread petrophysics1 gave what I think is very dangerous advice for those traveling in bear country.
Message 41As it is off topic there I decided to post my response here. Myth. Anyone with actual experience will attest to that
Source
I can find many more sources if needed.Your idea of running down a steep hill seems kind of meaningless as most places you run into a bear you are not going to have a steep hill within a distance where you can get to a safe place before the bear can reach you. Your advice seems to invite people to be hurt or killed.The generally accepted advice is bear species dependent. If it is a grizzly or or polar bear and a predation attack lie down and play dead. If it is a non-predation attack or an attack from a black Bear fight back.I would trust state and provincial DNR's and fish and game dept's over some dude.As for northern Ontario unless you are in the Hudson and James bay area all you are going to run into are black bears. There is never a situation in which running from a black bear is the best course of action. There are no grizzleys in Ontario. I'd like to know where in northern Ontario where one could use your advice of running down a steep hill. I have spent a fair amount of time in northern Ontario, wabikimi and further north, and do not know of any steep hills that would suffice. In the vast majority of bear encounters your steep hills just do not exist. Also, shooting a bear in Ontario also is not an option. Carrying a shotgun or sidearm on a fishing trip or canoe trip is not allowed. Still in all my times in BWCA, Quetico, Wabikimi and elsewhere I have had a few encounters with black bears. In none of those circumstances was I not able to get the bear to move off without it resorting to an attack. Yes I have moved on to different campsites, but this seems to be a better idea than to invite another encounter.Oh btw a horse is not a bear and "The Edge" is just a movie..

There is rarely a need to shoot a bear unless you are hunting it. In a bear encounter in which you have incited the bear to attack I highly doubt you are going to get off 5 effective shots.Also, your choice of ammo shows you are either a poser or just not real smart. Any idea what that hollow point is going to do when it hits that bear? Didn't think so. I don't think 5 .357 hollow points are going to stop a bear of any size. Ever spend much time in the woods?Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

It has been pointed out that you are not referring to what I said. Still cannot find where this was said.Edited by Theodoric, : Confused by what poster is saying

LOL lets look at what you originally posted before you edited it. You might not know but a poster can get responses automatically emailed to them. And you want to lecture me on namecalling?I notice you didn't answer the question. You might want to research effective .357 ammo for bears before you attempt to save yourself with a .357 and hollowpoints.Lets see what people that know guns have to say.

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Hollow points are not typically recommended for larger wild animals as they may not penetrate deep enough to hit a vital organ. Knock them down? Sure. Piss them off? You bet.

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When in bear country, magnum is the key word. While a 10 or 12 gauge slug would be great as would many rifles, they are not practical to carry. For bear country you would want a deep penetration round in a minimum of 357 Magnum, 10mm, 41 Magnum, but preferably 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, 460, 480 Ruger, 500SW. We also want the heaviest and fastest hard cast round we can find for penetration. This will give the best odds should a defense be needed. Something to consider, even in these larger calibers. Tests will show that less than 60% of Brown bears are stopped with handguns, and when successful it took at least four shots to stop the charging bear. I think it's quite a feat to be able to deliver a well placed shot into a charging bear, when fear, adrenaline and flashbacks of life are throbbing in your veins. Perhaps a more effective solution exists?

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Alternatively, 97% of bears are stopped with a 9oz. can of bear spray. Comparing the percentages, a firearm should actually be carried as a second line of defense should the bear spray prove ineffective. Yes that's right, Bear Spray. A lot of people react very weird when they here this. The ignorant ones will swear up and down that this can not be true, as any handgun is far better than pepper spray. This is because uneducated people think that a handgun is a death ray and shooting anything will deem you victorious. Do not believe these people, the statistics do not lie. When someone states something that starts with, "I think, ...." do yourself a favor and dismiss the claim immediately. "I think" is a huge gamble for something as important as your own life. There is no need to "think" you are correct, when the answers can be found with a simple google search. I am a believer in math, so "I know" that statistically the odds or survival will favor me should I choose the Bear Spray. Remember that pepper spray will be a hell of a lot more effective on a bear than a human. Why? Because their nose is wet. Smell is the bears sharpest sense. Scientists believe a bear can easily smell a carcass over 18 miles away. Shooting Bear Spray at a bear is the equivalent of you shooting it up your nose and into your sinuses. Moreover, it is a free country and people can use whatever stick, hand grenade or advice they choose, but heed this advice that was given to me by a friend who lived in Alaska. "If you are not going to carry Bear Spray along with your handgun, be sure you file down your front sights as smooth as possible. This way it won't hurt as much when the bear takes it from you and shoves it up your ass."

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Source Did you read the bolded part?

FMJ's prob are not a great choice either. Better penetration than the Hollow point, but more of a chance of ricochet off of bone and other hard parts. A flat nose, hard cast round is probably the best choice. It should give good penetration before it expands.FMJ's tend to be a cheap round. Since they are not made to expand you are going to probably get inconsistent and ineffective performance when it does hit something like a bear. You might get some rounds expanding, others might pass right through(thus you lose all the energy) if you dont make a good body shot.I want to make sure everyone understands that all of these rounds will kill the bear. A bear taking 4+ rounds from a .357 is going to die. It is the damage it can do to you before it dies that necessitates the use of the correct round if you are in one of those EXTREMELY rare situations when you have to shoot a bear for self defense.Also, hunting a bear is vastly different than shooting a bear in self defense. In hunting the shooting is controlled, thought out and analytical(at least it should be). In self defense the shooting is frenzied with adrenaline spiked. It is very difficult to make a good shot when adrenaline is spiked and you are shitting your pants.Watch some of the Olympic shooting events to get a sense of how important relaxation is in making an accurate shot.Bear spray is always the first and best choice. Even if you can carry a sidearm the spray is the best choice.

Unfortunately, I let this thread get away from me by making some intemperate comments. I do apologize for making what were perceived as personal attacks.That said I stand by the premises of my argument. The utter lack of rebuttal affirms that evidence supports the points I have made.First of all, the idea of running down hill to escape a bear is a complete and total fallacy.This plan is ineffective and extremely impractical. There are many reasons for this.

1. The vast majority of places where you will be dealing with a bear there will be no steep hills. I either see a bear or see signs of a bear(bear crap, torn up trees or logs etc.) usually about every week. There are no steep hills. When I travel in the back country of Wisconsin, Minnesota and Ontario there are no hills.
2. To run pellmell down a hill to escape a bear is inviting injury. I do not care if you are an experienced rock climber. Footing is extremely unstable off of trails and on trails. A turned ankle or broken bones is going to be a disaster.
3. Running across flat ground in the backcountry is inviting injury also. Try running as fast as you can through the woods. You are not going to be able to go fast and injury is likely. Even a simple injury like a turned ankle or stick in the face will drastically slow you down. In northern MN and ON it is impossible to move at any speed off of trails because of the nature of the ground cover. Last year I startled a beaver(they do growl and scared the crap out of me) I turned and made one step before I fell flat on my face.

Running, either up hill, down hill, cross country or whatever is never a good idea when dealing with a bear.The other thing I want to address is the idea that a handgun is going be your big protector in dealing with a bear. I tend to react harshly when someone makes a gun comment full of bravado and braggadocio. Guns are tools used for work and recreation. I find throwaway comments about them offensive and ignorant.There are a number of reasons why 5 shots of hollowpoints from a .357 is not an effective response to a bear.Keeping this USAcentric, we are talking about two potential situations. One is black bear country the other is grizzly country. In non-grizzly country there is no wildlife threat that a handgun is need for protection. Have people been attacked by wildlife? Of course, but it happening is extremely rare. If the thought of having a handgun makes you feel more secure(or as I have found in most cases, tougher and more manly) than carry it, but the chance of ever needing it is so rare as to not even be realistic.Grizzly country is different. Grizzly's can be a bit more aggressive than a black bear, but that doesnt mean your "home defense", "personal defense" handgun is going to help you. Unless you have a .454 Casull or higher your vaunted handgun is going to be of little help to you.There are a few reasons for this.

1. Your revolver or semiauto is not going to have the barrel length or bore size to be effective. A grizzly may very well die if you pump 5-6 rounds from your 10mm into it, but before it dies it is going to shove the gun up your ass and then go back for it from the other direction. Rather than dieing from blood loss it might ultimately succumb to infection from the wounds. Wildlife are extremely hardy. Even a white tailed deer can be extremely difficult to kill. Three years ago my wife's cousin shot a deer with a bow. We found a blood trail and followed it till it stopped. He thought it was a good hit, he is a good hunter so I did not doubt him. 10 days later during gun season he shot a deer with a 30-06, it was a body shot in the area of heart and lungs. He saw the deer drop after about 30 feet. He got down about 30 mins later as he approached the deer it got up and ran away. He shot it again, this time it stayed down. When we skinned it we had some surprises. The first gun shot missed everything important and was already starting to clog with fat and hair and clotting. The biggest surprise was finding the broadhead he hit the deer with 10 days earlier. It was just under the skin on the opposite side he had hit the deer. The deer must have been in a bit of pain but it was healing. The bow shot was almost a perfect shot but it slipped in just under the spine and missed everything important. Point is wildlife are extremely tough.

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   Smith's previous research found that guns were effective about 67 percent of the time. Shooting accurately during the terrifying split seconds of a grizzly charge is extremely difficult, he pointed out, and his data shows that it takes an average of four hits to stop a bear.

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   Source
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2. If a grizzly is threatening you getting off effective shots is going to be extremely difficult. I do not care how good a shot someone is on the range or hunting, dealing with an attacking bear is much different. Hitting a target and hitting it effectively while shitting your pants is extremely difficult. Watch competitive shooting the shooters are extremely relaxed, this is not the situation while trying to protect your life. An injured and enraged bear is much more dangerous than an irritated bear.
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3. Bear spray is proven to be much more effective.

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   When it comes to self defense against grizzly bears, the answer is not as obvious as it may seem. In fact,
   experienced hunters are surprised to find that despite the use of firearms against a charging bear, they were
   attacked and badly hurt. Evidence of human-bear encounters even suggests that shooting a bear can escalate
   the seriousness of an attack, while encounters where firearms are not used are less likely to result in injury
   or death of the human or the bear. While firearms can kill a bear, can a bullet kill quickly enough -- and can
   the shooter be accurate enough -- to prevent a dangerous, even fatal, attack?
   The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled
   marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law
   enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality --
   based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and
   defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons
   defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured
   experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero
   reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from
   a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.

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   Source
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   Thomas Smith, a bear biologist from Brigham Young University performed a study on bear spray. After analyzing 20 years of bear incidents, he found that bear spray was effective 92 percent of the time, compared to 67 percent for guns.
   Bear spray
   

The bear belongs there as much or more than you do. You are probably intruding on its territory when you disturb it. Why should it die because you are the one intruding?
Give me the bear spray.