Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being?
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 1 of 86 (670008)
08-07-2012 11:38 PM


I have seen a few Christians claim that many of what appears to be historical documents in the bible, actually did not occur at all. If the bible is book that is littered with stories that are pure fiction but that are conveyed in such a way to appear as legitimate, why would you trust anything else that it had to say? If you say some of it is true, is it only because it already agrees with you have decided for yourself to be true?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 08-08-2012 12:05 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 08-08-2012 1:18 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 5 by Huntard, posted 08-08-2012 1:27 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2012 1:35 AM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 08-08-2012 1:41 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 08-08-2012 2:07 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2012 4:09 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 08-08-2012 4:35 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 13 by jar, posted 08-08-2012 8:27 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 16 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-08-2012 9:28 AM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2012 10:33 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 21 by Jazzns, posted 08-08-2012 10:54 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 08-08-2012 1:24 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 52 by caffeine, posted 08-10-2012 6:39 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 64 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 2:31 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 17 of 86 (670057)
08-08-2012 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
08-08-2012 1:35 AM


And how many of those events are essentially to Christianity anyway?
Christianity is about trusting in Christ for salvation. You cannot trust that Christ's saving work on your behalf actually happened or is good enough to do the job if you cannot trust the author of statements to that effect. Why should anyone believe that Christ's atonement is actually able to save anyone if in the same book that is written in, there are stories that are verifiably false?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2012 1:35 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2012 10:37 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-08-2012 10:39 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2012 11:02 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 08-08-2012 12:13 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2012 8:09 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 33 of 86 (670113)
08-08-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Adequate
08-08-2012 8:09 PM


dradequate writes:
If I bound the gospels in the same volume as a copy of Alice In Wonderland, would that make them less credible? If I bound them in the same volume as something readily verifiable, such as the phone book, would that make them more credible?
Well then --- the Bible is only "the same book" in that fairly weak sense. One guy wrote one bit, one guy wrote another, another guy wrote another, and so on. This is why the Bible is written in such a hodgepodge of forms and in three different languages. Then one guy decided that they should be compiled together and called "the Bible", and another guy decided that different works should go into the compilation and different works should be left out, and a third guy disagreed with the first two ...
The writers of the New Testament quote just about every book of the Old Testament. The writers of the New Testaments ask such question as "What doth the scriptures saith?". They treat all the books of the Old Testament as one whole work and equally authoritative. Those same writers tell me that Christ died for my sins and that sacrifice is wholly sufficient for my salvation. If they are wrong about all the books of the bible being equally authoritative, why should I believe that are not wrong about the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice?
dradequate writes:
So ...who's "the author"?
God. Why? When Peter tried to prevent Christ from dying on the cross, Jesus replied "Get thee behind me Satan". Most people would say that Peter was the author of the words saying that Christ should avoid dying. According to Jesus himself, Satan was the author of those words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-08-2012 8:09 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2012 10:23 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 08-08-2012 11:11 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 08-08-2012 11:38 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 40 by Huntard, posted 08-09-2012 1:42 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 42 by Granny Magda, posted 08-09-2012 2:38 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 08-09-2012 8:30 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 37 of 86 (670121)
08-09-2012 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by nwr
08-08-2012 11:38 PM


nwr writes:
I'm puzzled that you cannot see this as metaphor. If your close friend said to you something similar to "Get thee behind me Satan", you surely would not take that as intended literally.
My friend is not an eternal being and the creator of the universe either and has never met Satan in person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 08-08-2012 11:38 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 38 of 86 (670122)
08-09-2012 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
08-08-2012 11:11 PM


Re: It's Christianity not Biblianity
gdr writes:
According to the Gospels the message is not about you and your salvation. Salvation is actually just a side issue.
Actually, the salvation of God's elect is the central focus of the gospels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 08-08-2012 11:11 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 08-09-2012 2:16 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 39 of 86 (670123)
08-09-2012 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by nwr
08-08-2012 1:24 PM


nwr writes:
It is the wrong question. Both you, and the owner of that Doubting Thomas blog, are asking whether or why you can trust the Bible. But what would you thereby be trusting?
I would be trusting that God is not a liar. Lunatics go around saying God told me this or that or to build this church. Oral Roberts used to be famous for such proclamations and I think his son rectal did as well. The point is that anyone can make such a claim. God tells us that he speaks to us in his word. If his word is untrustworthy then so is he.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 08-08-2012 1:24 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-09-2012 3:31 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 45 of 86 (670143)
08-09-2012 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Adequate
08-09-2012 3:31 AM


dradequate writes:
Well, that got circular quickly.
"God tells us in the Koran that he speaks to us through the Koran. If the Koran is untrustworthy than so is he."
So are you going to
(a) become a Muslim?
(b) call God a liar?
(c) stop employing logical fallacies?
None of the above. You have to decide for yourself which book is more internally consistent and which matches what you understand a holy and righteous God to be. There can only be one true word from an eternal being if the sources claiming to be that word are in indisputable contradiction. I am not going to call God a liar even if there appears to be fiction in his word. Either I do not understand the style of literature being employed or it happened like it said and we don't know everything yet. Job did not understand why his world was crumbling around him and his friends told him to curse God. He refused to do so because he knew that he could not trust his own senses when it came to God. God finally proved himself to Job in the end, and Job was not crazy for trusting God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-09-2012 3:31 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 08-09-2012 9:46 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 47 by Huntard, posted 08-09-2012 12:04 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-09-2012 12:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 49 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-09-2012 7:32 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 08-10-2012 5:14 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 55 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2012 10:32 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 53 of 86 (670659)
08-16-2012 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Artemis Entreri
08-08-2012 9:28 AM


chaoticskunk writes:
Well we just do not have very much evidence that alot of it did happen. I always figured most of the bible is stories and parables to teach a lesson rather than a literal passage about something that happened.
Why are the two mutually exclusive?
chaoticskunk writes:
Well I am not sure what examples you are talking about here, but there are so many things that are obviously not legitimate "real" stories, that it is hard for me to understand this perspective.
How would you know if they were real or not? Is it because you have never observed anything supernatural in your life before?
chaoticskunk writes:
Why would I trust a book of stories that I think are their to teach morality, because it doesn't have to be literal, to hold truth, and I do not have to believe everything in the bible as truth in order to validate the whole book.
What do you mean by validate the whole book? Why do you believe the bible is solely a book of stories whose purpose is to teach morality? Do you realize that many important doctrines of the bible completely fall apart if certain parts of the bible are not real? For instance, if the exodus story is a complete fabrication, the legitimacy of the nation of israel is completely destroyed?
chaoticskunk writes:
There was an intersting thread on bible canon I read recently, that i think ties into this much better. for some denominations having a literal and fully truthful bible is so tantamount for the whole denomination, that the denmonination will ignore logic and reasoning in a effort to validate thier beliefs and thier bible, thank God I do not belong to such a denomination
If logic and reason seemingly contradict a plain teaching of scripture, does that mean you must reject the plain teaching of scripture?
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-08-2012 9:28 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2012 10:20 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 08-17-2012 11:56 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 58 of 86 (670784)
08-19-2012 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
08-17-2012 2:51 PM


Re: On Israel
And foreveryoung seems to have missed the fact that the Biblical Nation State called Israel was often apostate.
Yes, and your point is.....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 08-17-2012 2:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 08-19-2012 9:13 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 60 of 86 (670819)
08-19-2012 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
08-19-2012 9:13 AM


Re: On Israel
Israel has no legitimacy and even the Bible says that God removed support and condemned the Biblical state of Israel.
If the exodus was pure fiction, then there was no state of Israel for God to condemn. You just defeated your ownself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 08-19-2012 9:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 08-19-2012 9:55 PM foreveryoung has seen this message but not replied
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 08-20-2012 7:59 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024