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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 211 of 382 (498338)
02-09-2009 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rahvin
02-09-2009 7:01 PM


Re: Re Gods
Straggler has it, "manifestation of God's will," and terminology something like this is what I've been trying to use. And the terminology isn't really mine. I was just trying to translate ICANT's cryptic responses into intelligible English, and that's what he agreed with. According to ICANT, the devil is just a means for God to project his will. Now that he understands the implications of his earlier statements he seems to be trying to distance himself from them, but as far as I can tell he's just getting more obfuscatory.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2009 7:01 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 214 of 382 (498346)
02-09-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by ICANT
02-09-2009 8:18 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICANT writes:
So it is not me that is attaching labels to them, but you seem to want to label them gods.
Uh, no, and you would have noticed I actually said the exact opposite if you'd bothered reading the 2nd paragraph of my post. There were only 2 paragraphs, after all, it isn't asking a lot that you read both of them.
So tell us, ICANT, how are angels different from the lesser pagan gods like Hermes. Hermes could fly freely between the immortal and mortal worlds. Can't angels do the same? Hermes could perform miracles. Can't angels do the same?
There is no substantial difference between the minor gods of the ancient Greeks and Christian angels. In reality Christians believe in a host of supernatural beings, just like the ancient Greeks, and the fact that they prefer the label "angels" instead of "gods" is just a matter of nomenclature.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 8:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 10:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 215 of 382 (498348)
02-09-2009 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 8:29 PM


Re: God and god
Buz, it doesn't matter what names your Bible uses to refer to supernatural beings. It's the nature of things that matter, not the names. The question is, do those supernatural beings have pretty much the same qualities as, say, the pagan gods of the ancient Greeks. As I've shown, they do.
So you can refer to heaven's lesser gods as angels, and the ancient Greeks can refer to Mount Olympus's lesser gods as gods, but they're pretty much the same thing.
The real difference of opinion is between you and ICANT, who believes that God is the ultimate source of evil.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 219 of 382 (498400)
02-10-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by ICANT
02-09-2009 10:46 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICANT writes:
The angels were created.
The angels do what the creator allows them to do.
Wrong, but I'll leave you to sort out with Buzsaw whether the devil can only do what God allows him to do.
Hermes was born.
Hermes did as he pleased.
Wrong again. Hermes both followed orders and acted independently, pretty much just like the angels.
That points out they are very different.
Then by your logic since Adam and Eve were created but Cain and Abel were born, they were all very different and not actually all human beings at all, right?
Is this to be your approach, find some difference between angels and the ancient Greek gods and then announce "BIG DIFFERENCE!" Of course different mythologies are going to have different gods in a different milieu, you'll be able to find differences of this nature all day, so good luck with that. Hey, angels have halos, Greek gods don't, big whoop!
The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind. By the way, would this be a good time to mention the Catholic habit of praying to saints? Doesn't having the power to answer prayers make one a god?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Clarify next to last para.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 10:46 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 7:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 220 of 382 (498403)
02-10-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 8:59 PM


Re: God and god
I used the example of Hermes in my posts to ICANT, and he's the messenger god, so since you're hypothesizing messenger gods why don't we use Hermes as the example instead of venturing off into more new territory.
But I think you're still hung up on vocabulary. If you prefer not to use the word god to refer to angels and lesser Greek gods then I'll try to accommodate you. Obviously they're all supernatural beings, angels in which you believe and Greeks gods in which you do not, and they all have pretty much the same powers. They can all not only carry messages, they can also appear and disappear, travel between earth and the dwelling place of the gods, disguise their appearance, i.e., they can all perform miracles.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2009 11:41 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 224 of 382 (498450)
02-10-2009 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Buzsaw
02-10-2009 11:41 AM


Re: God and god
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
But I think you're still hung up on vocabulary.
It appears that we are both hung up on our respective vocabularies due to being hung up on the respective dictionary definitions of "god."
You don't seem to be listening to what I'm saying. Once again, I am not hung up on vocabulary. I've said this several times in several ways. I referenced Shakespeare ("A rose by any other name etc..."), I said I'd try to accommodate you if you preferred the term gods not be used in reference to angels, I stated I was concerned not with the names of things but with their natures, that Christian angels and Greek gods are pretty much the same not because I'm insisting on calling angels gods (I'm not), but because they share many of the same qualities.
So when you go on to say things like this:
The terms supernatural and miraculous do not necessarily apply to the term/word, god.
It's irrelevant, because the labels we attach to things isn't what's important. Whether or not supernatural and miraculous are inherent in the definition of "god" (which has multiple definitions anyway), Christian angels and Greek gods are very similar because they share many of the same qualities.
So concerning Christian angels and Greek gods, they can all carry messages, they can all appear and disappear, they can all travel between heaven (or Mount Olympus) and Earth, they can all disguise their appearance, etc. In other words, they are all supernatural beings who can perform miraculous feats and possess miraculous capabilities that they use to interfere in the affairs of men.
Notice also that your comments about the supernatural possibly being very advanced science are also irrelevant. Whether that ever turns out to be true, angels and gods still have the same qualities.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2009 11:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 8:49 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 228 of 382 (498494)
02-11-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by ICANT
02-10-2009 8:49 PM


Re: God and god
Hi ICANT,
Well, you're pretty much doing what I said I thought you'd do, focusing all your attention on minor irrelevant differences. We're talking about ancient Greek and modern Christian belief in supernatural beings. Whether these beings marry, have kids or engage in war are all minor details.
You seem to have lost your sense of what's important. Say you were playing a guessing game where your partner had to guess what you're thinking of from your description, and you're thinking of angels. What details would you mention first? Would you start by saying they don't marry, have kids or engage in war? No, of course not, your partner would guess Buddhist monks, you'd lose, and after the game your partner would throttle you for being an idiot. If you wanted to win the game you'd start with their supernatural features, because those are what's most important and would allow your partner to guess the answer in the shortest time.
Christians share beliefs with ancient Greeks not because of issues like marriage, kids and war, but because they both believe in a menagerie of supernatural beings.
And you're wrong about angels not engaging in war. The devil is an angel, and according to Buzsaw he's engaged in a war with God himself for the souls of men.
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind.
Then why argue what they can or can not do if they don't exist?
Because what they can and cannot do governs whether they're supernatural, and by this measure both Christian angels and Greek gods are supernatural. There's no denying that both Christians and ancient Greeks believe in a host of supernatural beings. You're arguing that they don't believe in the same supernatural beings, as if this were a difference of any substance.
Percy writes:
Then by your logic since Adam and Eve were created but Cain and Abel were born, they were all very different and not actually all human beings at all, right?
Yes they were very different. Adam and Eve had no parents.
Cain and Able were the children of Adam and Eve.
So whatever Adam and Eve was so was Cain and Able.
So Adam and Eve were "very different" from Cain and Able, but whatever Adam and Eve were so were Cain and Able. So they were the same but different. Therefore, again by your logic, Christian angels and Greek gods are the same but different, which is just what I've been telling you. And the similarities are significant, the differences minor.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 8:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2009 9:04 AM Percy has replied
 Message 231 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 12:10 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 230 of 382 (498511)
02-11-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
02-11-2009 9:04 AM


Re: God and god
Don't tell me, tell ICANT.
But whichever way you guys finally agree, both alternatives contain contradictions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2009 9:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 232 of 382 (498521)
02-11-2009 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ICANT
02-11-2009 12:10 PM


Re: God and god
Sorry, ICANT, you're arguments are getting sillier and more picayune. I doubt they sound convincing even to you.
Why don't you work out with Buzsaw whether God and Satan are at war, and whether it is God's will that Satan tempt men to reject God's will, and once you guys have things all tidied up then you can get back to us.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 12:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 236 of 382 (498530)
02-11-2009 2:20 PM


Of Gods and Angels
As ICANT has left the realm of the rational a dialog with him is no longer possible, so I'll just correct his more significant errors from Message 235 for the sake of any lurkers.
ICANT writes:
You are the one that brought up the Greek gods.
Now you are saying it is silly and trivial.
What I said was that ICANT's arguments are getting sillier and more picayune.
So are you now abandoning your argument that the Greek gods are equal to the angels?
My argument was and remains that both Christians and ancient Greeks believe in a menagerie of supernatural beings.
I don't really see why it makes a difference whether the devil is doing his will or Gods will...etc...
Since it is Buzsaw and ICANT who hold the two opposing positions, I think they should discuss this with each other.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:52 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 239 of 382 (498536)
02-11-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ICANT
02-11-2009 2:52 PM


Re: Of Gods and Angels
ICANT writes:
But the Greek gods were mortal they died.
The Greek gods were as immortal as your God and angels. According to the Wikipedia article on Greek Mythology, "The Greeks considered immortality as the distinctive characteristic of their gods." Which ones are you thinking of who died? Anyway, I don't suppose it would be beyond the power of a greater god to eliminate a lesser god, just as your all-powerful God could do the same to an angel.
But you're still taking the same flawed approach, trying to think up meaningful distinctions between Christian angels and Greek gods. The mythologies that grow around different religion's supernatural beings will of course be different. Perhaps ancient Greece even invented mythologies where some gods died while Christianity did not, but that is again a distinction without significance. The specifics of the various characters and stories in a religion's supernatural menagerie will of course vary widely, but the general characteristics will always remain the same, supernatural beings with great powers who interfere in the affairs of men.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 247 of 382 (498621)
02-12-2009 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by ICANT
02-11-2009 9:35 PM


Re: Of Gods and Angels
Interesting. You don't answer the questions about the immortality of Greek gods and about which Greek gods killed whcih other Greek gods. And you don't address the issue that your religion is just like many other religions in making fantabulous claims about their supernatural pantheon, and that details like marriage, war and death are largely irrelevant mythological details.
You just repeat what you've said before.
Tell you what. If you don't have a response to what is actually being said, don't respond.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 312 of 382 (670182)
08-09-2012 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by marc9000
08-09-2012 7:40 PM


marc9000 writes:
Anyone who is the slightest bit religious, anyone but the most militant of atheists, should show some interest, however slight, in Intelligent Design.
Since you believe deists are just atheists by another name, this deist/atheist is so interested in intelligent design that he dedicated an entire forum of his discussion board to it. Your messages are full of statements that reflect extreme unfamiliarity with the very people you're debating with. Your opinions never seem influenced by your experience, or even the dictionary for that matter.
I feel about intelligent design the same way I feel about life on Mars. I'm extremely interested in both, but I await evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by marc9000, posted 08-09-2012 7:40 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by marc9000, posted 08-11-2012 10:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 321 of 382 (670205)
08-10-2012 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by marc9000
08-09-2012 7:40 PM


Hi Marc,
I find myself in need of a break, so I'm posting a 2nd response to this message to address some of the details of what it says. Just in general, you say a lot of things that reflect either a lack of understanding or an unawareness of significant realities.
marc9000 writes:
I think the one thing that has recently brought this out more than anything else is the immediate, widespread rejection throughout the scientific community of the concept of Intelligent Design.
Science doesn't reject the concept of intelligent design. It rejects claims that intelligent design is a legitimate scientific theory supported by a broad body of evidence that deserves more serious consideration by scientists and should even be taught as accepted theory in public school science classrooms.
Any hostility you might feel is not directed at the concept of intelligent design but at the exaggerated claims of its legitimacy as an accepted scientific theory. It's the same hostility that might be directed at anyone uttering falsehoods. The reaction of many people to blatant untruths is often visceral and immediate.
Since you have stated many times that science is hostile to intelligent design, and since this misunderstanding has been corrected many times, could we finally reach a resolution on this? Do you now understand that science is not hostile to the concept of intelligent design? Can we hope to have seen the last of this claim, at least from you?
I wish I could get to the rest of your message, but break time's over.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by marc9000, posted 08-09-2012 7:40 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(5)
Message 327 of 382 (670225)
08-10-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by marc9000
08-09-2012 7:40 PM


This post has received a POTM nomination from Minnemooseus and a 2nd from NoNukes, but what I see is a message where almost every sentence contains something that is either wrong or misunderstood, much of it about things that Marc has been wrong about in the past and already been corrected multiple times, and the comments about Bryan Rehm are just the same despicable Christian bigotry Marc has been spouting since he joined. Perhaps Moose and NN, who haven't yet participated in this thread, can chime in here and help Marc defend that post.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by marc9000, posted 08-09-2012 7:40 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
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