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Author | Topic: Does ID predict genetic similarity? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
This is obviously true but it seems to me that the fact that there are " principles that govern the way they work" should be construed as an indication in favour of intelligent design. It has taken intelligence to find and understand the principles, which seems to me to suggest that it took intelligence to form the principles in the first place. Really interesting thread by the way. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
If we are the result of intelligent design the one thing that we would likely predict is the existence of principles. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
Just like we see in the evolutionary process, but there are still principles involved. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
It seems to me that anything designed and assembled by humans requires principles. I'm not saying that an intelligent designer would be bound by them, I'm just saying it is what we would expect. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
Why?
See my answer to bluegenes. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
Human experience has been that it requires principles for us to design something. As it is all we know, then we would expect that if we are the product of intelligent design there would be principles. That isn't to say that there couldn't be another way that we would be unaware of.
We agree that there are principles involved in science including evolution. I also agree that that isn't conclusive proof of anything but we can come to our own conclusions. It is my belief that seeing as how there are principles and order, and that out of that has come intelligent life that it is more plausible that we have come from an intelligent first cause than not.
If we accept the fact that we are a product of intelligent design then because of human experience it would logical that we would think it likely that there would be certain principles as part of the design. Again, it doesn't mean that we would necessarily be right following that line of thinking. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
IN that case there would have had to be principles that have existed within the universe prior to human life, which then means that there would have to be principles that existed prior to the formation of the universe.
That doesn't tell us anything except that there are principles. It tells us nothing about why and how those principles exist. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
I've only got a minute so I'll just reply briefly to this. I am not talking absolutes. I'm simply saying this. All things that have been intelligently designed by humans have been based on principles. Ergo, "IF" we start we the assumption that the universe is intelligently designed then we could predict that there are principles involved in the design. No guarantees, but that would be the expectation. From what I have read about Newton that was his foundational understanding of nature. As a theist he expected order and principles and worked from there. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
But the whole thing is magic. We just don't recognize because magic for us is the norm. We have an existence made up of mindless, probably non-dimensional or one-dimensional particles in which we perceive a 3 dimensional existence, as well as in which we can experience change with intelligent thought. How much more magic can it get? So we have the magic but within that magic is a set of principles and an order that govern our day to day existence. We sense that in our day to day lives. From the magic that is our existence it seems reasonable to me that there is an intelligence that is at the root of it. As from the simple observation of this world we can see that out of that magic comes order, then it seems reasonable that we should in our science be able to predict, as did Newton, that we can learn about the principles that govern our day to day existence. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
I don't agree that I do. Isn't that how science works? Someone through reason comes up with a hypothesis that he/she works with to see if they can prove it to be accurate or not. For example, string theory is a hypothesis that science is trying to prove or disprove but it is prediction based on human observation. As humans we can observe that when we create something there are principles involved. I submit that with our experience as intelligent beings, as a hypothesis it is reasonable to predict, based on the assumption that an intelligent designer exists, that there should be principles involved in the design. Of course it isn't conclusive, just as the evidence for the hypothesis which is string theory isn't conclusive, but it is a reasonable prediction. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
I don't think that was the point. The OP asked this question. quote: I think this question is based on the assumption that there is an intelligent designer, not to use the fact that there are principles to prove a designer, but that if we accept that an intelligent designer exists that it could be, as a theory, suggestive that we should expect that there would be principles involved. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
That there are principles and order.
Certainly with modern scientific knowledge the thinking is circular. However, I have read, but can't find a quote, that Newton anticipated order and/or principles in his science because of his theistic beliefs.
That's funny, I couldn't convince Bluegenes either. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member (Idle past 189 days) Posts: 5410 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
I'm not starting with the facts. I'm simply saying that if we start with the acceptance that there is an intelligent first cause, that we should then, as a theory, expect order and principles in our science.
I don't have to demonstrate anything as I am only suggesting that we should expect principles and order when we start with the theory that there is an intelligent first cause, based on our own human experience of design. I am not saying that they are the "necessary consequence of a designer" nor am I saying that the "absence of such principles would equate to the absence of a designer". I'm just saying that it is a reasonable expectation. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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