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Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 16 of 178 (670508)
08-15-2012 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by onifre
08-15-2012 9:48 PM


Would you, could you, can "we", know how likely it is to get past that stage?
It's hard to say. It's happened one time out of one that we know of. Now if the planet had been chosen at random then I would say that on that basis we should think it likely --- it may be a small sample, but since it's all we have, we shouldn't ignore it for being small.
But in this case we have a biased sample. If life, or post-blobby-thing life, had only happened on one planet in the whole universe, than naturally any beings intelligent enough to be sitting around discussing the odds of it happening like we are would have to be living on that one planet.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 178 (670509)
08-15-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by onifre
08-15-2012 9:49 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Could something with nothing comparable to hands have ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 18 of 178 (670512)
08-16-2012 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
08-15-2012 10:10 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Could something with nothing comparable to hands have ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication?
Yeah totally, there is no limit in my opinion to which "body types" or lack there of can reach the intelligence we speak of. Given the diversity of life here on Earth I would say anything goes.
As for intelligence itself, just look at what it is here on Earth. It's a species 1% different from a primate still in trees picking ticks of the back of it's relative with the intelligence of our toddlers, at best.
In that 1% difference in DNA you find the ability to create the internet, the works of Michael Angelo, the music of Floyd, travel to Mars and the Moon, and come up with mathematical equations like String, General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and everything involving the mathematics of the Big Bang. That's just in 1%!
So imagine what intelligence would be if we go 1% more than us in the same sense as we are more than chimps. What would that type of intelligence look like? Would that type of intelligence even see a need to communicate with us, or even be able to?
If chimp intelligence is no better than toddler intelligence, then perhaps our intelligence is to them no better than their toddlers.
So with all that being said, I would see no limit to what a species like that could create and can also see it not having the need to use any of the functions we use to create art, or music or anything like that.
- Oni

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 178 (670537)
08-16-2012 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
08-16-2012 12:29 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But you defined intelligence as ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.
How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 178 (670541)
08-16-2012 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-16-2012 8:40 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
jar writes:
How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?
With it's highly flexible ability to see and communicate using the full EM spectrum....(for example)?
Imagine "music" or "art" or the expression of equations that utilise such abilities.
I dunno. It's all wild speculation. But I'm not sure "hands" are so essential for such intelligence. Although an ability to interact and manipulate the physical world in some sense would seem quite a likely development given it's obvious survival advantage.
"Sight" of some sort seems highly likely given the number of times it has developed independently on Earth.
jar writes:
How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?
In the same way that a quadraplegic human might?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 178 (670543)
08-16-2012 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
08-16-2012 8:53 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But again, those are more a measure of technology than intelligence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 8:53 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 22 of 178 (670548)
08-16-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by onifre
08-15-2012 8:23 PM


Re: I like to guess
onifre writes:
But why intelligence? It has not proven dominance for a very long time. Dinosuars were giant dummies by our measure of intelligence, and they lived way longer than us? And would have continued to do so had an asteroid not hit the planet.
Agreed. I must admit that in my list of dominant traits intelligence is the baby of the group.
However, I would also say that Dinosuars were developing intelligence. Smaller raptor-like dinos were getting smarter. Would they ever develop intelligence as you're defining it here? I suppose that's impossible to know. My stance, though, is yes... they would have. It's not like mammals started from nothing. They got a good base from the dinosuars to start from. I don't see it as too much of a stretch to have the dinos actually continue on the intelligence path instead of mammals if we take away the asteroid or other disastrous occasion.
I know we can only assume we'll survive but how do we know too much intelligence doesn't lead to our demise?
Point taken. I would say this is the largest blow to my position. If we look at the facts of human history (war escalation up to nuclear bombs and the ability to destroy the entire planet....), it almost seems inevitable that we will destory ourselves. Of course, there have been inroads of movement in the keep-the-peace side of things... but my arguement depends on looking at history and extrapolating into a straight line. If we take human's war history and extrapolate into a straight line... we're dead
I suppose "we'll see?" Or, more likely, we probably won't 'cause you and I will likely be long gone before any of this is figured out.
Yeah, me too. But I'm slowly being able to accept it more and more. And at this point, don't really mind the thought of being alone.
Ah... No, I don't mind the thought of being alone either. If there is other intelligence out there, and they're anything like us (currently)... it would certainly be safer for us to be alone, anyway... :]

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 178 (670550)
08-16-2012 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-16-2012 8:57 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
How so if it's using only it's body with no technological aids?

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 Message 21 by jar, posted 08-16-2012 8:57 AM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 178 (670551)
08-16-2012 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
08-16-2012 9:15 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Well again, you have not shown any examples of how that is done so there is nothing I can comment on.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:15 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:31 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 25 of 178 (670554)
08-16-2012 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
08-16-2012 9:16 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
You want me to give a living real example of a hypothetical alien with certain abilities before you are willing to discuss hypothetical aliens with those hypothetical abilities......
Oh.

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 Message 24 by jar, posted 08-16-2012 9:16 AM jar has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 178 (670557)
08-16-2012 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
08-15-2012 9:40 PM


None of those things. I'm just making an arbitrary line in the sand, where this is intelligent and "that" is not. It is specifically to separate us from every other animal.
Are you quite sure that dolphins do not create music or have complex communications? I am not. Those things do not require hands as some have suggested,
If you are going to define intelligence as separating us from every other animal (and plants too I'm sure) then you would seem to be using a rather biased screen to identify intelligent life on other planets as well.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 178 (670559)
08-16-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Straggler
08-16-2012 9:31 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
No, I simply want to avoid the "any shit that someone can make up" scenario.
Intelligence was defined by oni as "ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication."
Those are pretty specific things. We may consider bird songs as pretty but are they "music"? We may consider the bower birds display pretty but is it "art"? Are there any examples on earth of any other critter doing science, creating mathematical equations or having complex communication capabilities?
Note that what Oni said was inclusive. In Message 8 Oni said:
quote:
For the sake of "drawing a line" lets call intelligence the ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.
Is there another example of any critter other than man that does all of those things?
Humans do those things for several reasons that are unrelated to intelligence; we live on the surface of our planet and it has a relatively transparent atmosphere that allowed us to see beyond our immediate surroundings; we have hands with opposable thumbs that allow use to develop technology and live in an environment where controlled fire is possible and so began developing technology on a scale significantly different than any other critter that ever lived.
When we talk about art, music, science, math and complex communications were are describing our technology, not our intelligence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:31 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 9:13 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 178 (670561)
08-16-2012 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by onifre
08-15-2012 9:48 PM


From what I've seen and read, it seems like getting past the blob stage requires a group effort of surrounding celestial bodies and rock stuff (not the technical term).
I don't think getting past the blob stage requires other planets, but becoming able to support life might well require some well placed giant planets forming along with the smaller rocky ones.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by onifre, posted 08-15-2012 9:48 PM onifre has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 178 (670562)
08-16-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
08-16-2012 9:52 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Those are pretty specific things. We may consider bird songs as pretty but are they "music"? We may consider the bower birds display pretty but is it "art"? Are there any examples on earth of any other critter doing science, creating mathematical equations or having complex communication capabilities?
I'm not sure what is and is not "art", but even if bird songs are not music, and I accept that they are not, it is not clear to me that dolphins and other whales cannot and do not create music. No technical aids are needed to do those things. Similarly, math and complex communications do not require hands. Only writing those things down requires thumbs and technical aids. Science can be done using observing and reasoning. Beakers and microscopes are not required to observe experiments.
What if we found a human like species on a distant planet that had no music or had no artists? Would we consider them unintelligent if they had all of the other characteristics? I think that would be a ridiculous way to proceed.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 08-16-2012 9:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-16-2012 10:20 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 178 (670563)
08-16-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
08-16-2012 10:12 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Okay.
But that is my point.
Oni set a series of conditions to define "intelligent".
I question if the criteria he specified defines intelligence; I believe what he described is based on technology more than intelligence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 08-16-2012 10:12 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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