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Author | Topic: Who & what are the demons ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Ringo writes: Agreed, but I also think that those who see no evidence allow the lack of evidence to color their conclusion that such an entity or phenomena cant exist. If there was something real outside our rational logic, how would we know? Even those who believe in demons are looking at real manifestations, usually "odd behavior". The only difference between a scientific approach and theirs is that they let their beliefs color their conclusions. Could it be that people who refuse to believe in God are so adamant on reliance of their own wisdom and understanding that they have, in effect, become a god unto themselves?(not suggesting demons, but.... ![]() Edited by Phat, : title
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jar Member (Idle past 157 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Many that believe in God also don't believe in demons.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
jar writes: True, and I dont think that its necessarily helpful to believe in demons. Its like believing that evil is a force outside of us that we are powerless to correct. I prefer believing, however, that God is a force greater than myself in which I can rely when I myself am at the limits of my own efforts.
Many that believe in God also don't believe in demons.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Phat writes: True, and I dont think that its necessarily helpful to believe in demons. Its like believing that evil is a force outside of us that we are powerless to correct. I prefer believing, however, that God is a force greater than myself in which I can rely when I myself am at the limits of my own efforts. That seems awfully pick'n'mix. Isn't believing in good/God as a "force outside of us that we are powerless to correct" just a mirror image of that which you are rejecting demons for?
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Yes I will admit that. I am of the belief, however, that it is a mistake to place our own wisdom and understanding at the top of our choices. I believe that people who reject the possibility of God have closed a door that they may someday need to access.
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ringo Member (Idle past 730 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Claiming that something "can't exist" might be overstepping but there's no difference between the lack of evidence for demons and the lack of evidence for flying pigs; lack = lack.
... I also think that those who see no evidence allow the lack of evidence to color their conclusion that such an entity or phenomena cant exist. Phat writes:
I've never met anybody who "refused" to beleve in God. I've met some who would like to but can't. Either way, we have to rely on our own wisdom and understanding - and that of our fellow man - because nobody has ever found a God who will reliably do it for us. Remember Noah. He had to build his own ark. Could it be that people who refuse to believe in God are so adamant on reliance of their own wisdom and understanding that they have, in effect, become a god unto themselves? Edited by ringo, : Addedamissingspace.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Phat writes: I believe that people who reject the possibility of God have closed a door that they may someday need to access. I would put people who reject the possibility of God in the same class as those who have rejected the possibility of the demons. Or the Immaterial Pink Unicorn etc. etc. Personally I haven't rejected the possibility of any of these things But I see little more reason to believe in the IPU than demons or God. Phat - Do you reject the possibility of demons?
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
I suppose that you and I have had different experiences in life. I have experienced direct evidence of something unexplainable...once a man who was being prayed over...in a living room...had several different voices at once come out of him...(no, there was no hidden recorder) and I clearly and directly heard this. At that same time, my hair was standing on end and I knew that the experience was unusual.
Thus, for me, IPUs and fairies and goblins remain as storybook fantasies, but God and/or the supernatural realm seem more real to me. Granted, I cant prove anything concrete about what I have experienced, and I will admit to drawing conclusions based on bias. I will admit that I am predisposed to thinking that this stuff is probably true, largely based on opinions from people whom I know and trust that confirm such possibilities.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Presumably many of those who believe in the existence of demons have had experiences, or heard of events, which they attribute to the existence of demons.
Do you consider their belief in the existence of demons to be misplaced?
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
It is too simplistic to simply attribute every good event or blessing in life to a (or the ) Diety and to blame every bad misfortune on a demon. A wise man chooses what, if anything to believe in based on his worldview, his experiences, and his bias and predispositions to a lesser degree.
When I had my otherworldly experience, I remember being awestruck and thinking to myself "Oh My God! Does this now mean that that entire book is actually real? I mean... real???? At that moment I was quite convinced that what I was experiencing was real enough, but in all honesty I had no idea whether the voices came from demons or from aliens or from a still unexplained and thus unnamed phenomenon. I was already involved in prayer with others, various christian rituals and thus my framework of definition was from the perspective of what I had been taught. Personally, I wont simply believe in demons if for no other reason than to deny them the notoriety that they may well seek. All I know is that I experienced something that day that emerged from a living human being and was unlikely to have been caused by that person or any other collusion of human trickery. Assuming, thus, that what I experienced also was alive...but unsure what exactly it was.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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In this thread I am less interested in your belief in God and it's basis than your position on demons and those who do believe in their existence.
Do you consider those who believe that demons are responsible for certain experiences or events to hold false beliefs? What do you think forms the basis of these beliefs if it is not based on the actual existence of demons?
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Straggler writes: In this thread I am less interested in your belief in God and it's basis than your position on demons and those who do believe in their existence. Do you consider those who believe that demons are responsible for certain experiences or events to hold false beliefs? What do you think forms the basis of these beliefs if it is not based on the actual existence of demons? Whether or not demons in fact exist, belief in them is not productive nor conducive to a rational approach to life. In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway. Demons can make the mental disease worse than it otherwise would have been, much as an infection can make a cold far worse than it otherwise would be if allowed to run its course unhindered. As to whether people hold false beliefs, I can say, if i read your question correctly, that its best not to believe in demons whether they in fact exist or not.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway. But your god can?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
No, you have the power to deify your own intellect and follow your own piper...wherever he may end up leading you.
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ringo Member (Idle past 730 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
In that case, allow me to whip out Occam's Razor. If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway
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