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Author | Topic: An excellent Apologetics Lecture | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
(Audio Only)
This man has intelligence and a persuasive argument regarding Christian belief. Another good one:
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I wish I could have produced the transcript! I'm unconvinced that apologists are liars--in general. They simply have a different world view.
Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective Its a long podcast, but the part that I liked was from 1:05 on in for roughly ten minutes. Basically the caller (who is not as skilled at the debate as some of you) and co-host Andrew Rappaport had a rousing argument. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Basically, they were arguing the old idea that A God Who commands the slaughter of other nations is violating His own New Testament Laws of Loving Thy Enemy.
The counter-argument asked the rhetorical question of whether the allies had the moral high ground in the D-Day counter-invasion carried all the way to Berlin. One side argues that God used a nation as His tool to punish the reprehensible behavior and actions of another nation. The other side will(and does) argue that the book was written by humans and that God is but a concept of the human mind and that essentially humans define and are responsible for their own morality. But the question still remains. Would YOU have advocated punishing Nazi Germany (and Imperial Japan) and Al-Queda? If not, why not?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Children get their values from their parents. Metaphorically, Adam & Eve grew up the day they chose to acquire knowledge beyond the safety of "home". Metaphorically, Israel also was a rebellious nation in regards to loving God. In this day and age, people not only balk at the idea of loving God...judging His apparent character and behavior with their own wisdom, but they cease worrying about Him altogether. You would claim society "grew up" from its old mythology. I would say we became rebellious and proud in our own eyes. thus why I predict tough times and further lessons for modern people to undergo. And no, I don't gleefully anticipate it. If there is any smirk at all on my face, (inappropriately, of course) it is that you will be shocked upon learning that you dismissed God and that it was a wrong move. Of course, you allow for a polite nicely nice archetypical God to exist, as long as He doesnt stick His nose in human progress. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It all boils down to who is good and who is bad and whether we can even agree on such a definition. One side would say that Gods people are the good guys---if they obey and listen to Dad. If they do what is right in their own eyes they are rebellious and bad. The argument even goes into the idea that Israel herself was punished--by pagan nations---for not listening to God.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The potter can do what He wants with the clay. Where did the clay even get the idea that it was ok to argue? (a quickie answer...im on the way out the door to get to work )
Here is the answer from John Piper: (What do you think of his response?)
quote: Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So was it right what the allies did to Nazi Germany? Was it right what was done to Al-Queda?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Interesting. According to Wiki,
According to the Hebrew Bible, the kingdom of Judah resulted from the break-up of the United Kingdom of Israel (1020 to about 930 BCE) after the northern tribes refused to accept Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, as their king. It would be as if the US split up, one side preferring a secular democracy and the other side preferring a Theocratic Republic.
jar writes: Its a bit like you now...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?
Two Jewish Proto-States with entirely different ideas of what God was and what God wanted. Learn to actually read what is written in the Bible stories and ignore what the Snake-oil Salesmen claim should have been written. Not all apologists are snake-oil salesmen. They simply have a different idea(and belief) as to who God is.
The Old Testament is filled with actual information if you will read it honestly. See? This confirms it. You dont see God as actually existing as much as you see God (and Jesus) as products of our culture. It begins with two entirely different Gods that reflect how the people of two different eras imagined God.Understand the evolution and changes both in what God was imagined to be but also the evolution and changes in society over time. If you look you will see that it all starts with a band of peoples who worship different deities that over time evolve into separate and often fighting tribes that then combine into the beginnings of statehood but into dramatically different directions, one a Theocracy and the other form a Monarchy. Sounds logical, but I reject your ideology. You, like Stile, base everything on logic, reason, and what you claim to be reality. Your guns dont protect society any more than do your words.
Look at the Gods that are created. The God of Exodus can never be described as moral. The God of Genesis 1 is amoral and totally uninvolved beyond the initial act of creation; the potter who creates a vase then walks away from it never looking back. The God of Genesis 2&3 is very human; fearful, capricious, not totally honest but also forgiving and involved. So you always claim. Many people who have read the Bible conclude differently than you do. Perhaps the biggest reason you never got saved is that your Mama taught you that it is a copout. And I can see why many current Christian cults confirm your decision as the right one. (By their atrocious behavior) Apparently Stile believes as you taught us to believe: GOD is forever unknowable. Throw Him away. And to be fair, I see great hypocrisy in many apologists. I studied Matt Slick as he debated Matt Dillahunty. Dillahunty is much more preferable of a teacher despite the fact that he is an atheist. Slick is pompous, overbearing, and full of hot air. And I know that you will again accuse me of misrepresenting you as if you are the Lord and Master of framing the issue. Tell me now where I am wrong. I await your response breathlessly and full of anticipation. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: True, though I would use the appeal to popularity as my (only) valid defense. It would be easy, of course, to defend my belief based on the seriousness with which I initially experienced it (conversion) but all that I have to offer is at best subjective. Many, many similar stories exist from others, however. Moreover, I would argue that many of the other gods are not made up---they are actual demons disguised as God. Critics will argue that modern mythos is similar in regard to various deities...Zeus himself was a Demiurge, according to Wikipedia. Greek philosophy was quite precise in tying the gods into the human progression of thought. And I can see the argument...I just don't agree with it for obvious reasons. Just about every religion teaches that the other guy's god is made up. You believe that Zeus and Thor are made up, don't you? jar may claim that the evidence shows that the God(s) of the Bible were themselves human constructs...in that, we have no way of showing the evidence of GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen nor of His Son, (His character) anthropomorphized as human. Another reasonable argument, yet one rejected by most who claim to be believers. Hence again the appeal to popularity. Whether God exists outside the human mind, which I believe He does or is simply a product of the human mind individually and collectively will likely never be objectively proven. Unless such a Creator wanted it known at some point. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis?? And getting saved is just another utterly made up snake-oil.NO ONE knows whether or not they are or will be saved until after they are dead and judged. So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment. jar writes: How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are dishonest *except* yours. But the conmen love selling SALVATION.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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