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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 91 of 908 (456411)
02-17-2008 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by tesla
02-14-2008 12:18 PM


Re: hrm.
Thanks tesla,
it would appear that "macro evolution" has been understood as a complete species change from one species to another, and not cross breed-able.
micro evolution seems to be defined as evolutionary adaptions by a species to adjust to environments.
i believe its possible for one species to be born of another and not crossbreed-able with the original species, for the simple reason of the "apparent" evolution of the dog.
That works for me.
my thoughts (since you want a creationist opinion:
either stage either is a stage of evolution , or is not.
Question: why would creationist definition\usage differ from what scientists\science use? Does that accomplish anything but confusion?
who coined the term macro evolution?
I don't know.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by tesla, posted 02-14-2008 12:18 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by tesla, posted 02-17-2008 8:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 92 of 908 (456412)
02-17-2008 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by RAZD
02-17-2008 8:20 PM


Re: hrm.
Question: why would creationist definition\usage differ from what scientists\science use? Does that accomplish anything but confusion?
precisely my thoughts.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2008 8:20 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 93 of 908 (456926)
02-20-2008 6:31 PM


There is no difference between micro and macro if you take into account transitional fossils. There is no great leap from micro to macro, the whole arguement is wrong, transitional fossils, like that of the whales, shows descent with modification. There is no need, in respect to the whale(and all other species), to have a micro/macro discusion. We classify them as different species giving them the appearence of a micro/macro change but they don't just change from one species to the next. The micro/macro debate is old, many transitional fossils have been found and the debate should have been put to rest, I see it hasn't.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 94 of 908 (654475)
03-01-2012 7:48 PM


Definitions - macro, micro, are they different?
Let's look at what university biology websites have to say about microevolution and macroevolution:
quote:
Berkeley:
The Definition:
Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.
Microevolution - small scale evolution - is the changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next.
Macroevolution - large scale evolution - is the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations.
quote:
UMich:
Definitions of Biological Evolution
We begin with two working definitions of biological evolution, which capture these two facets of genetics and differences among life forms. Then we will ask what is a species, and how does a species arise?
Definition 1:
Changes in the genetic composition of a population with the passage of each generation
Definition 2:
The gradual change of living things from one form into another over the course of time, the origin of species and lineages by descent of living forms from ancestral forms, and the generation of diversity
Note that the first definition emphasizes genetic change. It commonly is referred to as microevolution. The second definition emphasizes the appearance of new, physically distinct life forms that can be grouped with similar appearing life forms in a taxonomic hierarchy. It commonly is referred to as macroevolution.
So again:
Microevolution - Changes in the genetic composition of a population with the passage of each generation.
Macroevolution - The gradual change of living things from one form into another over the course of time, the origin of species and lineages by descent of living forms from ancestral forms, and the generation of diversity.
So what is the difference? What happens to cause macroevolution that does not occur by microevolution?
Enjoy

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by our ability to understand
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Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 03-02-2012 4:13 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 105 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2012 1:01 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 908 (654650)
03-02-2012 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by RAZD
03-01-2012 7:48 PM


Re: Definitions - macro, micro, are they different?
So what is the difference? What happens to cause macroevolution that does not occur by microevolution?
My take on it:
(1) The process of Microevolution involves the change in the frequency distribution and composition of hereditary traits within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.
Mutation can cause change in the composition of hereditary traits carried by individuals of a breeding population, but not all mutations do so. In addition there are many different kinds of mutations and they have different effects (from small to large).
Natural Selection and Neutral Drift can cause change in the distribution of hereditary traits within the breeding population, but they are not the only mechanism that does so.
The ecological challenges and opportunities change when the environment changes, the breeding population evolves, other organisms within the ecology evolve, migrations change the mixture of organisms within the ecology, or a breeding population migrates into a new ecology. These changes can result in different survival and reproductive challenges and opportunities, affecting selection pressure, perhaps causing speciation, perhaps causing extinction.
Mutations of hereditary traits have been observed to occur, and thus this aspect of microevolution is an observed, known objective fact, rather than an untested hypothesis.
Natural selection and neutral drift have been observed to occur, along with the observed alteration in the distribution of hereditary traits within breeding populations, and thus this aspect of microevolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
(2) The process of Macroevolution involves the development of new species, the formation of nested hierarchies of descent of new species from common ancestor populations, and an increase in the diversity of life.
This looks at the continued effects of microevolution over many generations, where the accumulation of changes from generation to generation become sufficient for new species to develop that are different from the ancestral parent populations. This lineal change in species is sometimes called phyletic or arbitrary speciation.
(a) The process of Phyletic Speciation involves a lineage of descent from an ancestor population accumulating sufficient differences through microevolution that, when compared to the ancestor population, it would appear to be a different species.
This is sometimes called arbitrary speciation because it is difficult to agree on where the line of division from one species to the next occurs, how many times this occurs in a given lineage, and because the definition of species itself is fairly arbitrary.
The amount of change in phyletic speciation can be compared to the changes seen in divergent speciation between parent (ancestral) populations and the daughter (descendant) populations as a check on the amount of change to be considered.
(b) The process of Divergent Speciation involves the division of a parent population into two or more reproductively isolated daughter populations, which then are free to (micro) evolve independently of each other.
The reduction or loss of interbreeding (gene flow, sharing of mutations) between the daughter populations results in different, independent, evolutionary responses in the daughter populations to their respective and different ecological challenges and opportunities (including the existence and impact of the other daughter population/s on survival).
Independent evolution within each subpopulation results in divergence of the subpopulations from each other. Divergent speciation forms a branching pattern of descent from a common ancestor pool, and results in added diversity of species. Further instances of divergent speciation adds further to the branching pattern and results in a nested hierarchy pattern.
                         |
                         ^ a
                        / \
                       /   \
                      /     \
                     /       ^ b
                    /       / \
                   /       /   \
                  e       d     c 
Phyletic speciation with the development of new species by extended microevolution in a lineage of descent has been observed to occur, and thus this aspect of macroevolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
Divergent speciation with the development of new species by the reproductive isolation of daughter populations has been observed to occur, and thus this aspect of macroevolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
The formation of nested hierarchies of descent from common ancestor populations has been observed to occur, and thus this aspect of macroevolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
The addition to diversity by increasing the number of species and higher groupings has been observed to occur, and thus this aspect of macroevolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
One single example that shows all of these processes in the fossil record is:
Thus the essential difference between microevolution and macroevolution is divergent speciation and the resulting formation of nested hierarchies.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : minor revs/adds

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2012 7:48 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 96 of 908 (670811)
08-19-2012 2:27 PM


So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
in Peppered Moths and Natural Selection Message 327 Big_Al35 says
You and some others here have introduced mutation into the equation. This may account for genuine micro-evolution but has nothing to do with the example I was discussing.
Can you define micro-evolution?
Can you define macro-evolution?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2012 7:45 AM RAZD has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 97 of 908 (671209)
08-23-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by RAZD
08-19-2012 2:27 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
RAZD writes:
Can you define micro-evolution?
Can you define macro-evolution?
Can you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 2:27 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2012 10:08 AM Big_Al35 has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 98 of 908 (671217)
08-23-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Big_Al35
08-23-2012 7:45 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Hi Big_Al35
RAZD writes:
Can you define micro-evolution?
Can you define macro-evolution?
Can you?
Yes.
Do you want to discuss those definitions* and see where you agree\disagree and why?
Do you want to do it here (with comments made by other people as well), or would another format (say a "Great Debate" as a one-to-one discussion) be more acceptable?
Enjoy.
* Note that I can also back up my definitions with common use in the field of biology and references to actual course material used in university courses.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2012 7:45 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2012 10:39 AM RAZD has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 99 of 908 (671224)
08-23-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by RAZD
08-23-2012 10:08 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
RAZD writes:
Do you want to discuss those definitions* and see where you agree\disagree and why?
Please define macro-evolution for me and maybe we can take it from there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2012 10:08 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2012 12:06 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2012 1:38 PM Big_Al35 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 100 of 908 (671231)
08-23-2012 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Big_Al35
08-23-2012 10:39 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Aren't you sitting at a computer with internet access?
LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2012 10:39 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

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 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2012 12:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 101 of 908 (671232)
08-23-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2012 12:06 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Aren't you sitting at a computer with internet access?
Even that minor amount of research is completely unecessary. RAZD presented definitions for both micro and macro-evolution right before asking Big Al for his definitions.

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The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 908 (671233)
08-23-2012 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
08-23-2012 12:17 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
And here I am, sitting here with a mouse with a wheel on it >.<
If only I had made one simple swipe with my finger...
**actually, it took two swipes
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : **

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2012 12:17 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 103 of 908 (671235)
08-23-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
08-23-2012 12:17 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
NoNukes writes:
Even that minor amount of research is completely unecessary. RAZD presented definitions for both micro and macro-evolution right before asking Big Al for his definitions.
Ok...can you tell me what his definition was then?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 908 (671236)
08-23-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Big_Al35
08-23-2012 12:27 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
See Message 94 where he explains it yet again.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 105 of 908 (671238)
08-23-2012 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by RAZD
03-01-2012 7:48 PM


Re: Definitions - macro, micro, are they different?
Which one is it? And why would you need a definition from me when you have so many available to yourself?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2012 7:48 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2012 1:25 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 107 by Taq, posted 08-23-2012 1:34 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 109 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2012 1:48 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
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