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Author Topic:   The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 121 of 318 (672782)
09-11-2012 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
09-11-2012 10:40 AM


Re: Jurisdiction
CS writes:
And if Hiroshima wasn't a crime then some drone strikes certainly aren't.
CS writes:
Weapons evolve and get better and people are going to be uncomfortable with the use of the new technology, but its not "criminal".
The consequence of actions that might not be considered "criminal" by an aggressor nation is called blowback. Perhaps you remember this:
(Even though the weapons used on 9/11 were of old technology, I gotta say, I still remain uncomfortable with them.)
Edited by dronester, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-11-2012 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 318 (672789)
09-11-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by dronestar
09-11-2012 11:04 AM


Re: Jurisdiction
CS writes:
And if Hiroshima wasn't a crime then some drone strikes certainly aren't.
The consequence of actions that might not be considered "criminal" by an aggressor nation is called blowback.
And?
Perhaps you remember this
How could I forget? What's your point?
(Even though the weapons used on 9/11 were of old technology, I gotta say, I still remain uncomfortable with them.)
Just because people are uncomfortable with new technology doesn't mean that they cannot still be uncomfortable by the old technology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by dronestar, posted 09-11-2012 11:04 AM dronestar has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4211 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(1)
Message 123 of 318 (672791)
09-11-2012 12:22 PM


As long as humans remain uncivilized
As long as humans remain uncivilized, they will kill each other. This has been going on ever since civilization began. Innocent victims aka collateral damage has occurred in all conflicts. Whether it is Hiroshima or drones, it is nothing but super lessor of 2 evils mentality. This will continue as long a humans are guided by greed, hate and stupid stereotyping.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 124 of 318 (672794)
09-11-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by bluescat48
09-11-2012 12:22 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
BS48 writes:
As long as humans remain uncivilized, they will kill each other. This has been going on ever since civilization began. Innocent victims aka collateral damage has occurred in all conflicts. Whether it is Hiroshima or drones, it is nothing but super lessor of 2 evils mentality. This will continue as long a humans are guided by greed, hate and stupid stereotyping.
And it will continue when bad men support war criminals . . . and it will also continue when good men do nothing.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3734 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 125 of 318 (672798)
09-11-2012 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by dronestar
09-11-2012 12:41 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
dronester writes:
And it will continue when bad men support war criminals
Thank goodness that no-one here is supporting war criminals then.
We haven't even mentioned any, from what I remember - so you can rest, contented that no-one here is supporting war criminals.
/pat
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 126 of 318 (672812)
09-11-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by dronestar
09-11-2012 12:41 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
And it will continue when bad men support war criminals . . . and it will also continue when good men do nothing.
So do something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by dronestar, posted 09-11-2012 12:41 PM dronestar has not replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 127 of 318 (672817)
09-11-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by crashfrog
09-11-2012 1:52 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
He is, he is.
Posting his disdain on a Interwebz forum.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 128 of 318 (672854)
09-11-2012 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by crashfrog
09-11-2012 8:01 AM


Re: Jurisdiction
You've not been able to explain how it's more legal for the United States to "try" people not in custody, who are not American citizens, and who are engaged in conduct that may not even be illegal under their own law. I would point out that under those circumstances - the accused being unable to face their accuser, challenge evidence, or present a defense - no "trial" could be anything but a farce.
I haven't been able to explain it because that's the point. You couldn't legally kill these people unless you declare some nebulous world engulfing war.
Sadly, accidental, unintended casualties is the name of the game in military intervention. But many less people are dead as a result of drone strikes than would be dead as a result of a military invasion and occupation of Pakistan.
Again with the false dichotomies. You start with the assumption that somebody needs to die. How about the option of not droning the funeral?
I have no problem with drones over any other weapon. In fact they are far superior in many ways. They don't risk a pilot. They can fly for up to 30 hrs which gives the operators lots of time to try and minimize collateral damage. They are cheaper than a jet and don't burn so much gas so they are green too! On top of that, you can send them where you just wouldn't send a jet plane because that would be too much like a war. What's not to like?
Make what illegal?
Make killing people by accident illegal. The fact that we have been killing each other accidentally for millennia is not much of an argument in support of continuing to do so.
Just for a little context and to support the notion that the US is actually at war with somebody, how many terrorist attacks that took place in the last decade against the US can you cite? Where is this peril that demands the killing of innocents? I am not saying that there is no threat but where is the proportionality of response?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2012 8:01 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 129 of 318 (672855)
09-11-2012 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
09-11-2012 10:40 AM


Re: Jurisdiction
Your like a knight arguing with someone from World War 1 about how using guns on the battlefield is criminal because the bullets might miss their target and hit something else.
No, I am not like that at all.
I am saying that there is a limit to the extent of the battlefield. I am saying that the intended targets are a lot more like criminals than they are like combatants. I am saying that because I don't want my funerals to be attacked I will not support the allies of my country, or anyone else, attacking other peoples funerals. I am saying that if you are going to go around killing people then they better deserve to die. I am saying that you can not call yourself civilized and go around killing people who do not deserve to die.
I am suggesting that if enough people said that it was unacceptable then it would be unacceptable.

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 130 of 318 (672856)
09-11-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by 1.61803
09-11-2012 2:50 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
Posting his disdain on a Interwebz forum.
Well it is more than posting his support.

This message is a reply to:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3734 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 131 of 318 (672857)
09-11-2012 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Dogmafood
09-11-2012 10:07 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
Dogmafood writes:
Make killing people by accident illegal.
So, you are advocating the bizarre position of intentional deaths being legal and accidental deaths being illegal.
And how exactly should soldiers ensure that they completely avoid accidental deaths?
Because, unless you can guarantee a way to avoid unexpected deaths, no soldier could risk going into battle.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Dogmafood, posted 09-11-2012 10:07 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 132 of 318 (672858)
09-11-2012 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Panda
09-11-2012 10:22 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
So, you are advocating the bizarre position of intentional deaths being legal and accidental deaths being illegal.
Well you have your natural accidents like getting run over by a truck and you have your unnatural accidents like getting blown up by a missile.
It's hardly bizarre. All the best legal killing is done with the deadliest of intent.
Because, unless you can guarantee a way to avoid unexpected deaths, no soldier could risk going into battle.
I would suggest baby steps but I like your vision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Panda, posted 09-11-2012 10:22 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 133 of 318 (672869)
09-12-2012 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by crashfrog
09-10-2012 9:19 AM


Re: Jurisdiction
Because a nation's military used military ordinance to attack them?
No, because it was a zone where a small tactical army of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were combating the US to weaken our nation. Same as what we do when we drop missles from drones. They don't have the taxes to fund a 98 billion dollar defense budget so, they had to get creative with their weaponry.
Drone strikes don't violate any of the provisions of Article 8 of these statutes.
It clearly does, you just failed to read it or didn't care to concede that it does. As usual.
quote:
(iv) Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2012 9:19 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 134 of 318 (672870)
09-12-2012 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Panda
09-11-2012 12:51 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
Thank goodness that no-one here is supporting war criminals then.
Plenty of people here voted for and still support the decisions of the Bush administration. So yeah, many here do support a war criminal.
I'd also wager many here supported Reagan, who supported the Contras, who were war criminals themselves, and by proxy so was Reagan. So there are plenty of war criminal supporters here.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Panda, posted 09-11-2012 12:51 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3734 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 135 of 318 (672873)
09-12-2012 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dogmafood
09-11-2012 10:48 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
Dogmafood writes:
Well you have your natural accidents like getting run over by a truck and you have your unnatural accidents like getting blown up by a missile.
Perhaps you could give definitions of 'natural accident' and 'unnatural accident', since you have made up these terms to try and support your crazy ideas.
Or is it just a distinction without a difference: "A distinction without a difference is a type of argument where one word or phrase is preferred to another, but results in no difference to the argument as a whole."
Dogmafood writes:
I would suggest baby steps but I like your vision.
You think the developed world should disband its armies?
You think that would be a good thing??
Your responses lack anything beyond naive knee-jerk reactions.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dogmafood, posted 09-11-2012 10:48 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Dogmafood, posted 09-12-2012 8:29 AM Panda has replied

  
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