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Author Topic:   Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 54 of 86 (670662)
08-16-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by foreveryoung
08-16-2012 9:43 PM


foreveryoung writes:
Do you realize that many important doctrines of the bible completely fall apart if certain parts of the bible are not real? For instance, if the exodus story is a complete fabrication, the legitimacy of the nation of israel is completely destroyed?
why? wasn't israel promised to both abraham, and david, as well as moses? israel, as a nation, was not formed under moses. it was formed under israel, jacob, from his 12 sons.
and on a secular note, i would argue that israel would be *more* legitimate if they were not a foreign, invading power as in the exodus story, but had always been local residents.

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 55 of 86 (670664)
08-16-2012 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by foreveryoung
08-09-2012 8:57 AM


foreveryoung writes:
and Job was not crazy for trusting God.
why do you think job trusted god? he calls god unjust, and only seems to show trust when god himself answers his charge.
Job did not understand why his world was crumbling around him and his friends told him to curse God.
well, his wife did, but perhaps with the notion that god would strike him dead on the spot and end his suffering. his friends had said that god cursed him, because he had sinned. job refused to deny god (outright) because that would be sin, and justify his torment. god himself says that his friends are wrong, and that job, who claimed god was unjust, spoke correctly. that this quiets job perhaps reveals his true intention: job is doubting, though not denying god. he would rather an unjust god than a random existence.
He refused to do so because he knew that he could not trust his own senses when it came to God
and yet, god himself verifies job's argument.
this is one of those texts that is so frequently misread by christians on a very basic level. it is akin to people arguing that the tree of knowledge didn't make the man and his wife like god, as the serpent said it would -- even though god says it does. similarly, christians tend to miss the quote by god here:
quote:
the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as My servant Job hath. (42:7)
which is ironic. in a book people claim to be the word of god, those same people are somehow missing the literal words of god.

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 67 of 86 (672993)
09-12-2012 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by purpledawn
08-20-2012 7:59 AM


Re: On Israel
purpledawn writes:
quote:
If the exodus was pure fiction, then there was no state of Israel for God to condemn. You just defeated your ownself.
As Arach pointed out in Message 54, per the Bible, Israel was formed from Jacob and his twelve sons. (Genesis 35:9-13)
right; the exodus is the formation of first temple judaism, not the nation. the nation (that is, the people) are merely the descendants of jacob. the kingdom is formed under saul (but mostly david). these are related concepts, so people like to conflate them. but they're separate concerns...
(1) An earlier historical work cited as: "The Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel" (II Chron. xvi. 11, xxv. 26, xxviii. 26); "The Book of the Kings of Israel and Judah" (ib. xxvii. 7, xxxv. 26); "The Acts of the Kings of Israel" (ib. xxxiii. 18); and perhaps also as "The Midrash of the Book of Kings" (ib. xxiv. 27).
"the book of the kings of israel and judah" (or "...judah and israel") might well be something very much like the modern book of kings.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 68 of 86 (672994)
09-12-2012 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
08-19-2012 9:55 PM


Re: On Israel
jar writes:
Further the Exodus had NOTHING to do with the creation of a nation state called Israel but rather of a people identified as Hebrews.
er, a people identified as "israel" or "the sons of israel". even the biblical authors like to equivocate the kingdom and the people, so it's not surprising that people confuse them.
the "hebrews" would have been a larger linguistic group; all people speaking hebrew. biblically, they are the sons of eber. עֵבֶר = "eber", עִבְרִית = "ibrit" or "hebrew".

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