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Author Topic:   The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 202 of 318 (673017)
09-13-2012 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by NoNukes
09-13-2012 9:43 AM


Re: Accidents
We're talking about deliberately firing a missile at a target knowing that only a fraction of the people who will be killed are suspected of being terrorists. But the person ordering the strike simply doesn't give a hoot about the collateral deaths.
Do you have any evidence to support either of those assertions?
And are either of them even relevant?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2012 9:43 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Panda, posted 09-13-2012 10:03 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 318 (673053)
09-13-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by dronestar
09-13-2012 12:23 PM


Re: Are you a spy?!?
Ok, Panda. I understand you are desperate to have some sort of victory in a thread that you are advocating the US government murder children.
I assume you have evidence to support that panda or anyone else in this thread advocated the US government murder children, or murder anyone for that matter?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by dronestar, posted 09-13-2012 12:23 PM dronestar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 318 (673073)
09-13-2012 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by New Cat's Eye
09-13-2012 2:24 PM


Re: I know a war crime when I see it.
It's interesting when I see empty vacuous phrases like "the cause of 9/11" thrown around.
Let's look at what lead up to 9-11 that might have involved the US.
Iraq invaded a neighboring Nation State and the US was asked to help free that Nation State, stationed troops in Saudi Arabia to do that with the full support of the Saudi Government and under mandate from the United Nations to free Kuwait.
After a long period of attempted negotiation to try to avoid a battle, it became clear that there was no chance for peaceful resolution, invaded to drive back Iraq forces from Kuwait.
After a short battle the US and its allies succeeded in freeing Kuwait and showed restraint by NOT continuing on to overthrow the government of Iraq or attack major Iraqi cities and infrastructure.
Again, under UN mandate, supported and maintained a quarantine of Iraq to prevent the ruler of Iraq from carrying out his threats against the surrounding Nation States.
Where are the asserted "criminal acts"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-13-2012 2:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 318 (673100)
09-13-2012 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Dogmafood
09-13-2012 7:08 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
If the military has the right to blow someone up, wherever they might be, then, surely, they also have the right to arrest that person. If not then I would suggest that we give it to them.
Sorry but that is way beyond our capability. We cannot give the military the right to arrest anyone not already within US jurisdiction.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Dogmafood, posted 09-13-2012 7:08 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Dogmafood, posted 09-13-2012 7:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 318 (673104)
09-13-2012 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Dogmafood
09-13-2012 7:14 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
That is something that is legal.
But don't try to tell me what I think. Deal with YOUR position, I'll take care of my position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Dogmafood, posted 09-13-2012 7:14 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Straggler, posted 09-14-2012 7:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 318 (673128)
09-14-2012 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Straggler
09-14-2012 7:05 AM


right or wrong?
There is no one right or wrong answer. Each incident is unique and individual and the decision of right or wrong will depend on the threat, costs and reward in that particular incident.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Straggler, posted 09-14-2012 7:05 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Straggler, posted 09-14-2012 10:57 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 275 of 318 (673135)
09-14-2012 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Straggler
09-14-2012 10:57 AM


Re: right or wrong?
But the same answer applies to the question of morality; there is no single moral or immoral answer available except on an individual case by case basis.
But one thing I am sure of — If Iran (or whoever) implemented a drone attack on US soil that killed a number of US civilians the Western media would have absolutely no qualms at all about applying the term murder and murderers to those deaths and the people that were responsible for them.
The media often applies terms incorrectly and so that is totally irrelevant.
Your example is also totally irrelevant to the issue of US drone attacks. It might be relevant if the US were carrying out drone attacks in England or France or Italy or Germany or Canada or Japan or any other nation where there is a reasonable expectation of rule of law. That is not the case.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Straggler, posted 09-14-2012 10:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Straggler, posted 09-14-2012 2:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 283 of 318 (673145)
09-14-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Straggler
09-14-2012 2:01 PM


Re: right or wrong?
straggler writes:
jar writes:
But the same answer applies to the question of morality; there is no single moral or immoral answer available except on an individual case by case basis.
Exactly. Again. So when we ask if the US government is guilty of murder, the legal answer is "No" and the moral answer is....... Far more ambiguous.
I have little doubt that the US military has undertaken activities that have resulted in deaths which would be very difficult to justify by any reasonable moral standard. Not every attack. But some could well qualify as "murder" in that sense.
That's a pretty vacuous assertion and so irrelevant.
Murder is not synonymous with morality. Murder is a purely legal term.
straggler writes:
jar writes:
The media often applies terms incorrectly and so that is totally irrelevant.
Well it is and it isn't. It shows that whether we choose to apply the term "murder" outside of a strictly legal context says as much about our own biases and allegiances as it does anything else.
No, it shows sloppy thinking and word usage.
straggler writes:
jar writes:
Your example is also totally irrelevant to the issue of US drone attacks. It might be relevant if the US were carrying out drone attacks in England or France or Italy or Germany or Canada or Japan or any other nation where there is a reasonable expectation of rule of law. That is not the case.
My example applies wherever the affected nation doesn't feel that the nation in which the terrorist resides will take the necessary action to stop him terrorising their citizens. If in my example the US citizen in question was deemed by Irani intelligence to be covertly working with the CIA they are hardly likely to trust the US authorities to take the action they think necessary are they?
The US and Iran are currently in a State of Belligerency and so that should be considered an Act of War by one Nation State against another Nation State.
The US and Pakistan are NOT in a State of Belligerency.
It is still irrelevant.
Edited by jar, : fix end quote

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Straggler, posted 09-14-2012 2:01 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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