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Author Topic:   Miller and Urey Experiment: What has changed?
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 12 of 85 (674198)
09-27-2012 2:21 AM


There has to be energy to form these amino acids. Hence the lightning. No new data has been released because no new successful experiment has been conducted. (It’s not the fault of the scientists, they tried hard)

Here’s what I don’t like about the Miller-Urey experiment. It does not use the whole spectra of the UV range. It uses a specific wavelength to produce the amino acids and left out all the rest. (Which would have been harmful to the amino acids. Part of the reason why UV light is used to kill bacteria in hospitals.).

It also had traps to remove the product before it is destroyed by radiation. Not something found in the natural world. (The ocean would not have protected the amino acids in a natural enviroment. UV light can penetrate several meters)

Also, presumed conditions of primordial earth would have driven the amino acids toward lonely isolation. Hence any formation of proteins would have been subverted. There is also a strong tendency for peptide bonds to break down in water.

In addition to this, there is something known as the “chirality problem”. With rare exceptions, all bio-molecules of amino acids are left-handed, and those of sugars are right-handed.

Racemates are mixtures artificially created that have a 50:50 ratio of right and left-handed.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Blank lines.


Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:57 AM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 14 of 85 (674240)
09-27-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 8:57 AM


Simple question. What experiment has been conducted that expands successfully (as in the direction towards making life) Miller’s original experiment? Can I provide the references tomorrow? It’s night here.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 10:27 AM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 17 of 85 (674302)
09-27-2012 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
09-27-2012 10:10 AM


Percy, They found more amino acids. most all needed for life, I think. Unfortunately, that does not qualify as life. Additionally, it does not qualify as life. Now that leaves the question, What is life?
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 18 of 85 (674303)
09-27-2012 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 10:27 AM


Exactly what experiments can be cited, Dr.?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 21 of 85 (674316)
09-27-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 7:10 PM


Thanks. I'll look that up. Maybe I'm wrong on this one
This message is a reply to:
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 23 of 85 (674321)
09-27-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 7:16 PM


I need incorporate bacteria ONLY if I believe in evolution, which I do not. This is the standard textbook version of life, which I adhere to. Viruses are non-living because they are unable to metabolise on their own. They need a host. So basically, an organism that is able to metabolise on their own. And, no. I don’t have to incorporate God into this. Since I do not know why you want it to be so.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 09-28-2012 2:27 PM LimpSpider has responded
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2012 3:08 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 24 of 85 (674322)
09-27-2012 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 7:50 PM


No, Dr, you misrepresent me. Yes, they have been doing experiments, collecting data, etc. But. No experiment that makes life from non life. Per my definition. And yes, I'm getting about to reading those references, so I'll not be replying in awhile
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 26 of 85 (674329)
09-27-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 8:03 PM


I believe I have added to that what I wanted to say. It is not a contradiction. The extensions to M-U, I would not consider new.
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 31 of 85 (674341)
09-27-2012 9:46 PM


Nope, not rhetorical. Here’s the references:
Vogel, G., RNA study suggests cool cradle of life, Science 283(5399):155–156, 1999
Miller, S.L., A production of amino acids under possible primitive earth conditions, Science 117:528–529; p. 528, 1953 (Where he describes his experiment)
http://www.americanairandwater.com/uv-hospitals/index.htm (For the hospital reference)
Traps: Miller
http://wiki.answers.com/...enetrate_water_and_to_what_degree
Peptide bonds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolysis
homochirality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)

Racemate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racemic_mixture


  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 32 of 85 (674342)
09-27-2012 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Percy
09-27-2012 9:05 PM


Yes, that's what I meant, Percy. Sorry about the mix-up. I tend to do that even in class. (Got scolded multiple times for mixing a "point" and "line" )
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 36 of 85 (674456)
09-29-2012 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
09-28-2012 12:58 PM


Actually, I’ve never seen a virus evolve the ability to metabolize.
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 37 of 85 (674457)
09-29-2012 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
09-28-2012 2:27 PM


Yes I did. Sorry, I meant God. And, oh, no God is not bacteria... My thinking error
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 38 of 85 (674458)
09-29-2012 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
09-28-2012 3:08 PM


quote:
Uh, no, you need to incorporate bacteria if you think they're alive.

My error...

quote:
Well, creationists usually claim that God is alive. (And, of course, dead people too.) So it would be nice if one of them just once would provide a definition of life under which this would be true. Is God "an organism that can metabolize on its own"? Not according to conventional ideas of the Godhead. So ...

You see. I don’t claim God is alive. I rather view it as God is beyond death.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 43 of 85 (674501)
09-29-2012 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
09-29-2012 12:30 PM


I have told phat in a private message that I adhere not to a literal reading of Scripture, but to a literal-historical-grammatical-contextual reading (I think I said that somewhere on the forum too) And yeah, it was a private message......
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LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 44 of 85 (674504)
09-29-2012 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
09-29-2012 1:14 PM


Which means that they would not evolve the ability to metabolize, right? So they can’t be intermediate. They are simply too successful.
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Replies to this message:
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