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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 218 of 304 (674730)
10-02-2012 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
10-01-2012 2:27 PM


Re: Fulfilled Prophecies
Ahaz was not evil in the eyes of God according to the story, rather it was Israel that was abandoned by God.
I will give it to you, that in the course of this discussion, a few times I thought I should re-read some chapters to get a refreshed overall picture.
But, Ahaz was recorded as a not a good king at all. God can be faithful to sinful people too.
quote:
In the seventeenth year of Pekah son of Remaliah, Ahaz son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign. 2 Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. Unlike David his father, he did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord his God. 3 He followed the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. 4 He offered sacrifices and burned incense at the high places, on the hilltops and under every spreading tree. (2 Kings 16:1-4)
Have you ever read the Bible?
Yes, but not nearly enough. But in my reading I did notice that all the promises of God find their Yes and Amen in the Son of God.
"For as many promises of God as there are, in Him [Christ] is the Yes; therefore also through Him is the Amen to God, for glory through us to God." ( 2 Cor. 1:20)
So in reading the Bible, some of us understand that so many positive personalities in the Old Testament were types of Christ, in whom the Father had His ultimate fulfillment of His promises.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 10-01-2012 2:27 PM jar has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 223 of 304 (674754)
10-02-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Granny Magda
10-02-2012 12:33 PM


Whilst you are free to believe whatever you like, you need to realise that from an outsider's perspective, this sounds like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
I was an "outsider" once and not born an "insider."
One example of dual meaning applied to prophetic words occurs in the life of king Saul. The saying "Is Saul also among the prophets?" was attributed to two events in his life in First Samuel.
Prophetic predictions took place concerning Saul (1 Sam. 9,10).. Three detailed predictions are spoken concerning Saul. The third says -
"After that you will come to the hill of God, where the Philistines garrison is. And as you come to the city there, you will encounter a group of prophets coming down from the high place, preceded by harp and tambourine and pipe and lyre; and they will be prophesying.
And the Spirit of Jehovah will rush upon you; and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. And when these signs happen to you, do as you find occasion, for God is with you." (1 Sam. 10:5-7)
The events do happen according to prediction. And when the people see Saul prophesying among the prophets a kind of catchphrase circulates among them as an affirmation of God doing something wondeful for Israel and unto Saul.
First Samuel 10:11-12 "And when all who had known him previously saw that now he was prophesying with the prophets, the people said one to another, What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets? ... Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?"
But this "mashal" or saying is repeated again for another event in First Samuel 19:24. The context is different. Now a highly apostate Saul sends three bands of men to hunt out David. David is with the prophet Samuel at Naioth. Each of these three groups of scouts are caught up in the Spirit of God and begin to prophesy also.
Saul goes himself to investigate. He too gets caught up by the Spirit of God and he lies naked a day and night prophesying before Samuel. This incident is also given as the reason for the people's saying -
First Samuel 19:24 - "And he [Saul] also stripped off his clothess and also prophesied before Samuel, and he lay naked all that day and all that night, THEREFORE they say, Is Saul also among the prophets? "
Two wonderful occasions in Israel's history are given as explanation of the proverb about Saul being among the prophets. God, apparently cared less about the technicals of matching one event with one fulfillment then He did to repeat a vital matter in His purposes. Mainly, Saul should be moved by the Spirit of God, not only initially at the time of anointing, but again when given opportunity to repent of his rebellion.
I can see therefore the saying about "a virgin shall be with child" who is to be called by others and her Emmanuel, to also recieve a dual fulfillment.
While this appears to you as cynically wanting cake and eating it too, it could be that your priorities simply do not match God's sometimes, in His fulfilling the words of His prophets.
It is important that Saul be speaking the word of God when initially anointed as king. It is even more important that Saul be speaking the word of God instead of jealously hunting, with the intent to murder, his successor according to God's will.
It is important that Ahaz rely upon God to be saved from his national enemies. It is even more important that God become incarnated for His redemptive work for all the world.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 224 of 304 (674755)
10-02-2012 3:56 PM


Continued with Granny Mag -
Your "double fulfilment" is, from an observer's viewpoint, indistinguishable from a prophecy that is vague enough to fit multiple events. That makes for a less than persuasive argument.
Perhaps so. But you have a number of models of these kinds of paradoxes. And the wise and understanding sometimes are not the ones to whom God reveals His most vital truths, but to other trusting hearts -
"In that hour He exulted in the Holy Spirit and said, I extol You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes. Yes, Father, for thus it has been well pleasing in Your sight." (Luke 10:21)
Sometimes we should not have so much trust in ourselves as being too intelligent, too wise, to believe God's ways. It is not just your intellect that He seeks to gain. It is all your heart of loving emotion, confessing conscience, submissive will, as well as analytical intellect that He seeks to gain.
I think some refer to the word "holistic" in regard to a well rounded sphere of human life.
Take the the citation of Lev 26:29 for example. The quote notes that this has been fulfilled at least three times. Well... yeah. Of course it has been. That's because it is a trivial prediction. Cannibalism has, sadly, always existed and probably always will.... It's a banal prediction and way too vague.
I don't read those passages about Cannabalism as practiced around the world. I think the specific referent is Israel.
I don't know how regularly Israel fell into Cannabalism. I don't think that regularly they did. And while the prediction may seem banal to you, the people involved applied it to rather immediate and pressing circumstances. It was more than once they had to consider the dire consequences of revolting against the worship of God.
You see a double fulfilment of prophecy. I see a collection of vague prophecies that lack specific detail to the point where they can be fitted around any number of events. This kind of material isn't going to be convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe in Biblical prophecy. It might be fine for playing to the crowd, but it's not going to be persuasive elsewhere.
I don't agree. Especially when it comes to Christ, to whom all the other godly figures in the Bible are only types, foreshadows, and pre-figures.
When Noah was born the people saw in that an answer to the promise of God for a Savior -
"And he [Lamech] called his name Noah, saying, This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands, which come because of the ground which Jehovah has cursed." (Gen. 5:29)
But in the larger scheme of world history we know that Christ is the greater Noah. For the salvation of those who enter into Him with the earth and the animal kingdom is released from the curse because of His second coming.
Had we had a time machine we would have to inform Lamech - "Lamech there is even a greater Noah to save us which is coming after this Noah. That is the Son of God. "
"For as many promises of God as there are, in Him [Christ] is the Yes; therefore also through Him is the Amen to God ..." (2 Cor. 1:20)
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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 225 of 304 (674759)
10-02-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
10-02-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
In Isaiah the Kings of Israel are depicted as evil while in 2 Kings we see just the opposite, it is Judah that is vilified.
I don't think this theory would hold up under close examination. Rather what we have here in Isaiah and Second Kings is the candid speaking of the word of God, appropriate to the real situation.
Second Kings 22:1,2 speaks well of Josiah who reigned 31 years in Jerusalem. According to your theory he should only be vilified.
Second Kings 18:1 - 20:21 has some good things to say about Hezekiah who reigned for 25 years in Jerusalem.
"And he did what was right in the sight of Jehovah, according to all that David his father had done." (v.3)
"And he clung to Jehovah the God of Israel, so that after him there was no one like him among all the kings of JUDAH, nor any among those who were after him." (v.6)
Now I get to turn the question to you. Did you read the Bible ?
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Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 4:36 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 227 of 304 (674761)
10-02-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by jar
10-02-2012 4:36 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Again with irrelevant quote mining.
We were talking about your attempted quote mine that was related to the Isaiah prophecy and it does stand up there as I demonstrated.
Ah, but when you blow it, making a booboo, then its time to remind everbody what we were REALLY talking about.
Therefore the biased self serving national propoganda theory does nothing to help your case of failed prophesy here.
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 Message 226 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 4:36 PM jar has replied

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 Message 228 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 5:10 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 229 of 304 (674765)
10-02-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
10-02-2012 5:10 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Your tone is quickly approaching candidacy for ignore status with me.
Besides your brainstorms, I have been responding to Ringo, Dr. Adaquate, Granny Magby at least.
If you have in that list of three, one post you think should get more attention tonight, which one? But I don't think you have been getting neglected by me.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 233 of 304 (674805)
10-03-2012 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Granny Magda
10-03-2012 2:26 AM


You have the worst case of Jesus-tinted sunglasses I've ever seen. Is there any part of the OT that you don't think is about Jesus?
I have New Testament lenses through which I view the whole Bible. The Old Testament is often like the picture. And the New Testament is like the caption underneath the picture.
This is the way it should be. Paul wrote about the examples given in the OT for benefit of the latter age saints:

"Now these things occured as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did ... etc." (1 Cor. 10:6,7)
He is speaking of the behavior of the Hebrews in the 40 year wilderness journey. The things that occured were examples to the new covenant saints believing in Christ.

"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (v.9)
The Old Testament events often were examples for the NT saints and under God's sovereignty were "written for our adminition".
So to have "Christ tinted glasses" in reading the Bible is what the Apostle Paul admonishes of us.
I could say more about this in order to preemptively deal with objections I anticipate some would raise. But I'll stop with this much.
All you do here is demonstrate to all just how criminally low you've set the bar for prophecy. If you are going to insist upon labelling half the OT as Jesus-prophecy, no-one is going to take you seriously.
I didn't do that. I presented some examples of prophecy with dual fulfillment.
Now if you do not like the cannabalism instance, we can put that aside. The instance in First Samuel of two distinct events furnishing the writer's explanation of the source of the saying "Is Saul also among the prophets" is a good example the people of God recognizing God's promise fulfillment on more than one occasion.
First Samuel 10:10-12 and First Samuel 19:23,24
Without some effort from you at pinning down your criteria for prophecy, I don't see how this conversation can progress.
My main criteria is to compare the Matthew 1:22,23, which is explained as prophetic fulfillment of certain specific words, with a few other examples of such a thing.
I think that the example of Saul being promised by the prophet to be changed into another man because of the Spirit of God has its biblical fulfillment spoken of twice by Samauel -

" ... And the Spirit of Jehovah will rush upon you: and you will prophesy and be turned into another man." (1 Sam. 10:6)
1.) "And when all who had known him previously saw that now he was prophesying with the prophets, the people said one to another, What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? ...
(IE. he has turned into another man!) ... "Is Saul also among the prophets? And someone from there answered and said, And who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets? (1 Sam. 10)
2.) "So he [Saul] went there, toward Naioth in Ramah. And the Spirit of God came upon him as well, and he went on and prophesued until he came to Naioth in Ramah.
And he also stripped off his clothes and also prophesied before Samuel, and he lay naked aall that day and all that night, Therefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?" (1 Sam. 19)
This is close enough for me to accept the prophet's word about a virgin being with child ... Emmanuel, having a dual fulfillment in Isaiah's child and in the birth of the Son of God.
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 234 of 304 (674807)
10-03-2012 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-02-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Well.. it has to be unambiguous, and it has to be shown that it was considered a messianic prophecy BEFORE the l fulfillment, and it has to be translated properly and in context.
Matthew is not ambiguous in his words - "Now all this happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, SAYING, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuek" (which is translated, God with us.)).
The words are specific. He doesn't mention the 65 years of Isaiah 7:8. He does not mention Damascus or Samaria as in verse 8. He does not mention Ephraim. He does not mention Pekeh or Remaliah of the seventh chapter of Isaiah. He does not mention kurds and honey.
He specifically and unambiguosly singles out the words of verse 14 as having fulfillment in the virgin birth of Jesus from Mary.
There is some difference between "she will call" and "they will call". I regard that as trivial. It is close enough for me.
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Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:39 AM jaywill has replied
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 235 of 304 (674810)
10-03-2012 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-02-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The prophecies in Isaiah were fulfilled, and withing 20 years of their utterance as has been pointed out to you numerous times.
The point is that they do not have anything to do with Jesus.
The specific words that Matthew says are being fulfilled, VERSE 14, does prophetically have to do with the Son of God.
In a coming chapter 9 of Isaiah we are also told a child is born who is to be called Mighty God. So a child born with the name "God with us" - Emmanuel, basically reemerges in chapter 9.
God knows exactly what He wants to do. He is not groping around doing miscellaneous trivialities.
You simply do not appreciate how central to the divine revelation is the incarnation of God as a man.
Isaiah's son "Maher-shalalhash-baz" born of the young woman prophetess, Isaiah's wife, is a type. The greater antitype is the Son of God miraculously born of the virgin Mary.
Again, the specific words that Matthew singles out are in verse 14. So I cannot point to something done by the Assyrians in Ahaz's time to signal verse 14 cannot be applied to Jesus.
God is sovereign and God can apply it.
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This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 236 of 304 (674811)
10-03-2012 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-02-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Isaiah 7:7-9 and Isaiah 7:14-17.
The prophecy is that Israel and Aram were attacking Judah and the King of Judah feared they would win, but God sends a prophecy that Ahaz need not worry about them, they would get destroyed.
And that happened. Assyria conquered Israel (and carted off much of the population) and Aram and Ephraim but not Judah.
The Prophecy was fulfilled at that point.
Matthew does not refer to anything else in that chapter except the words in verse 14 -

"Now all this has happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying,
Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel" (which is translated, God with us)."
Those are the only words I see Matthew refering to as predicting the virgin birth of Jesus.
In essence you're saying it is not fair for God to re-cycle (if you would) prophetic utterances. Evidence in Scripture reveals to me that God would do dual fulfillment.
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 Message 238 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:34 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 240 of 304 (674816)
10-03-2012 9:49 AM


Granny Mag,
no-one is going to take you seriously.
We expect that some people will not take the word of God seriously.
But many of us take seriously Matthew's reference to Isaiah 7:14. And we take seriously that God demonstrated previous to this incidents that He could dual fulfill His predicted promises.
Barnhouse regarded prophecy as a pyramid coming up out of the ocean. It is a small pyramid at first. Then it is much larger but retains the basic same shape. Then it is much much larger but it is still a pyramid in shape.
One day it emmerges more and is gigantic - huge. Yet it is still in the same shape, a pyramid.
God's promises in the Bible can be like this. You have promises concerning David. Yet David is unworthy of the greatest honor. Then you have the Greater David - Jesus Christ. And you have Jesus Christ coming the first time and coming the second time.
The pyramid of God's promises is emmerging from beneath the waters.
We have to take seriously that God must have had someone better than Solomon to be the messianic son of David. The promises concerning David's son cannot have had ultimate fulfillment in Solomon the idol worsipper with 600 wives and 300 concubines who led Israel into idolatry.
You see God will not allow His hands to be tied when someone promises something turns out to rebel against His purpose.
So some dual fulfillment enables God to, kind of, change His mind without changing His will.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 241 of 304 (674829)
10-03-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by jar
10-03-2012 9:39 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The author of Matthew is marketing a revisionist form of Judaism. The author is writing after the fact. The author is not making prophecy. The author is simply wrong.
I don't think so. I think you are marketing your modernist unbelieving form of skepticism. I wouldn't trust you over the Gospel of Matthew.
I am certainly glad that Joseph took the visiting angel seriously.
"And when Joseph awoke from his sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commandd him and took to himself his wife. And he did not know her until she bore a son. And she called His name Jesus." (vs. 24,25) .
It is such a beautiful thing to see man working in cooperation with God in trust.
Joseph's obedience and faith paved the way for God to bring about the promise.
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 Message 239 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:39 AM jar has replied

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 Message 242 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 10:45 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 243 of 304 (674831)
10-03-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by ramoss
10-03-2012 1:11 AM


The use that the authors of the New Testament put those passages is certainly not inherent in the passages themselves, in their original context.
This is the technique known as 'shoe horning' a prophecy into place, after the fact..
I don't think that is what is going on with Matthew. Rather I think your suspicion is reminicient of that of the remnant of Jews against Jeremiah the prophet.
They simply could not bring themselves to believe what Jeremiah said God's word was to them. They were highly suspicous of Jeremiah the same way you are highly suspicious of the writers of the New Testament.
Now there are plenty of instances when God did warn about false prophets (Ezek. 22:28; Jer. 23:16; Jer. 6:14-15; Jer. 28:15; Ezek 21:29)
So there is the other extreme disbelief. That is of counting all "Thus sayeth the Lords" as legitimate prophecy. That's another error that men should avoid on the opposite extreme.
But that Jesus, after His resurrection, explained previously under appreciated OT passages is evident from Luke 24:13-35, 44-46.
"Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures".
Your accusation is one of "shoe horning" and "retrofitting." But I believe that God can open our minds to understand the Scripture. (At that time it was the Hebrew Bible as Scripture).
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 244 of 304 (674832)
10-03-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
10-03-2012 10:45 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
You asked for an example of fulfilled Biblical Prophecy and I gave you an example of fulfilled prophecy.
I have gone back fairly over posts I thought I may have missed from you. I did not see examples of fulfilled prophecy.
What I saw was some suggested criteria without examples other than the Isaiah passages in chapter 7.
To that I have shown you Matthew only referenced specific words in verse 14 and not all the rest of the happenings spoken of by Isaiah.
Beside this, what example did you hold out?
I saw your criteria - unambigious, beforehand speaking, etc.
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Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by NoNukes, posted 10-03-2012 11:31 AM jaywill has replied
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 246 of 304 (674835)
10-03-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by jar
10-03-2012 9:34 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The author of Matthew can't predict the birth of Jesus.
Sorry but it really is that simple.
Here's a post I missed.
It is the angel of the Lord that was sent to Joseph who predicted.
He said the child would be born of a virgin to Joseph (Matt. 1:20)
Yes, Matthew is recording what the angel said to Joseph afterwards.
I don't think Matthew is doing anything much different from Isaiah as Isaiah explains some things afterwards too (ch. 8) about Isaiah's son's birth, etc.
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