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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 124 of 318 (675201)
10-08-2012 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
10-07-2012 12:13 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
According to my personal definitions I am a theist and a devourer of gods. According to your personal definitions you are a theist who doesn't believe in the actual existence of god(s).
But by any meaningful definition I am not a theist. And by any meaningful definition you are a theist because the thing you believe in quite obviously qualifies as a god.
If you want to be understood and engage in meaningful communication you will use words as others use them.
If you want to ponce around sounding superficially profound whilst proclaiming that everyone who refuses to adopt your private definitions is misunderstanding/misrepresenting you - Then carry on as you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 10-07-2012 12:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-08-2012 9:54 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 125 of 318 (675203)
10-08-2012 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
10-08-2012 5:49 AM


Re: IF as Objectivity
Phat writes:
We are talking only of a Creator of all seen and unseen. We are not assigning this Creator any character or image beyond this.
Yes you are. It's a conscious being - Right? It's an intelligent being - Right? It's a supernatural being - Right? Furthermore the thing I started discussing with jar is also classed as "unknowable". And we already know this thing is being put forward as the 'creator of all that is seen and unseen'. So we have the conscious, intelligent, supernatural, unknowable creator of all that is seen and unseen.
A god by any other name. Pretty vague as gods go. But still very definitely a god.
Phat writes:
Granted we are imagining/believing that such a character may exist, and further we are speculating that if such a character exists He/She/It need not be a product of our imagination.
If by "It need not be a product of our imagination" you mean it might conceivably actually exist in the same philosophical sense that Immaterial Unicorns and all those other irrefutable conceptions I know you love so much might conceivably exist - Then sure. But so what? That misses the point.
If something is genuinely unknowable, if it cannot be detected - Then any conception anyone has of it is imagined.
This is just a fact isn't it?
Phat writes:
This is a simple either/or construct. There is no way to assign it probability.
Rubbish!!!!
If I tell you that a materially undetectable unicorn is standing next to you is that a simple either/or construct? Or is it likely that I have invented this thing and that it doesn't actually exist (even if in some philosophical sense it might)?
Phat writes:
Probability can only be assigned from a finite set of variables...such as collective human imaginations.
How probable is it that there is an immaterial unicorn standing next to you?
How likely is it that I am making up this entity for purposes of debate?
How likely is it that I think I am making up this entity for purposes of debate whilst the immaterial unicorn standing next to me has a laugh at my expense?
Phat writes:
I suppose for the sake of this argument, such a concept need not exist for you if you cant imagine it.
The fact I can imagine something means that the human ability to imagine things is evidenced. Meanwhile the competing notion that this thing actually exists remains completely unevidenced.
On the simple (yet essentially inarguable) basis that evidenced conclusions are more likely to be correct than unevidenced ones - Voila!!
Phat writes:
This, however, does not prove that it only exists in the imagination of one or many.
What it "proves" is that humans can imagine gods. What remains completely unevidenced is the possibility that gods actually exist.
On the simple (yet essentially inarguable) basis that evidenced conclusions are more likely to be correct than unevidenced ones - Well - You tell me what the conclusion is on that basis.....?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 5:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 127 of 318 (675209)
10-08-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
10-08-2012 9:54 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Do you want to be understood through common use of terminology so that you can engage in meaningful discussion?
Or do you want to shoehorn your own assumptions into arguments through the conflationary use of your own rather self-serving definitions and then relentlessly insist that you are being misunderstood/misrepresented by others who choose to use terms with their common meanings rather than adopt yours?
jar writes:
I try repeatedly and explicitly to adequately explain how I am using the words and continue to try to educate those who seem unable to understand the nuance.
I understand the nuance. But I am pointing out the contradictions. For example here is a typical definition of the term theist:
quote:
Belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Now you say the thing you believe in is NOT a god. Yet you also claim to be a theist. How can this be? I'll tell you. It is because you are flip-flopping at convenience between common definitions and your own private ones. That isn’t nuance. It’s conflation.
jar writes:
However, since I have repeatedly explained the nuance and way I am using the terms GOD, God and god, to say that you cannot understand how I use the terms is very telling.
I understand perfectly well how you are using them. You are using them in a way that is inevitably going lead to inconsistencies. Inconsistencies such as the above.
jar writes:
I have never asked anyone to adopt my public definition and have even said that you are free to think that god is a Kit-Kat bar, that God is a Kit-Kat bar or the GOD is a Kit-Kat bar. In the case of the first two you are even correct if that is what you really believe, however in the latter instance there is yet no evidence of whether or not you might be correct.
There you go shoehorning in your own assumptions and definitions again. How is the latter any different to the other two except by your own definition?
Jar — Why not just use common definitions to explain your ideas? If, as you keep intimating, inventing your own definitions and repeating them ad-nauseum isn’t getting your ideas across — Why not try another approach?
Is it because without the implicit assumptions inherent in your definitions your arguments won't hold up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-08-2012 9:54 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 10-08-2012 11:55 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 129 of 318 (675231)
10-09-2012 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
10-08-2012 11:55 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
You have defined the object of your belief (i.e. GOD) as that which is NOT a human construct.
Yet you also start many of your arguments with the faux-reasonable IF GOD exists..
But if GOD is neither a human construct nor something that existswhat is it?
You have in effect defined the object of your belief (i.e. GOD) as that which exists.
You have defined the object of your belief into existence!!!
This isn’t an argument. At worst it is a debate tactic. And at best it is a thinly disguised (although quite possibly self-deceiving) act of confirmation bias
jar writes:
I define and used those terms, GOD, God and god for the exact reason of the nuance.
That the object of your belief is defined into existence is just a happy co-incidence no doubt!!
jar writes:
I define and used those terms, GOD, God and god for the exact reason of the nuance.
You say your ideas a simple and not particularly profound. Yet, for all it’s famed subtlety, variety and nuance, you apparently find it impossible to express these simple thoughts using the English language as is. Instead you feel the need to invent your own words and definitions. Furthermore you feel the need to not only invent meanings but to commandeer already existing terms and redefine them in contradictory ways.
jar writes:
I don't see anywhere that what I have posted does not stand up....
  • As a theist which god(s) do you believe exist?
  • Do you accept the possibility that GOD does not exist?
  • Do you accept that if GOD does not exist then GOD is a human construct?
    jar writes:
    ...., but if you do see such a condition I will be happy to discuss it with you as I always have in the past.
    Have you? Well let's see. Because in the past challenging your definitions and assumptions usually results in you simply repeating yourself in ever more trite ways culminating in pointless responses such as "I can't help you" and "It really is that simple".

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by jar, posted 10-08-2012 11:55 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-09-2012 7:59 AM Straggler has replied
     Message 132 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 10:31 AM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 131 of 318 (675236)
    10-09-2012 9:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
    10-09-2012 7:59 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Phat writes:
    Assuming that possibility by definition includes all answers, then yes. Again, I assign nor see no evidence for a numerical probability, however. (apart from 50/50)
    Where are you getting 50/50 from?
    Phat writes:
    By definition, GOD has no definition apart from an eternally living entity, presumed intelligent beyond human capability at definition.
    Being vaguely or ambiguously defined isn't the same as being undefined. A supernatural intelligent creator IS a definition.
    Phat writes:
    If GOD does not exist, there is no human construct, same as if He/She/It does exist.
    Of course there is a human construct!! How can anyone claim to believe in something if they have absolutely no conception of what it is they believe in?
    The very idea of a conceptless concept is absurd!!!!!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-09-2012 7:59 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-09-2012 7:58 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 133 of 318 (675247)
    10-09-2012 12:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 132 by jar
    10-09-2012 10:31 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    jar writes:
    I think it is very unlikely any god(s) exist except as a human construct.
    What makes it any more likely that GOD exists as anything other than a human construct?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 10:31 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 134 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 12:39 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 135 of 318 (675252)
    10-09-2012 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 134 by jar
    10-09-2012 12:39 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    I didn't ask you what you believe. I asked you what was likely. They are not the same thing.
    I have faith that England will win the world cup every four years. I believe. But I still consider it unlikely.....
    Because (as you are so find of pointing out) beliefs aren't necessarily rational or evidence based.
    jar writes:
    I think it is very unlikely any god(s) exist except as a human construct.
    With the above distinction in mind - Here is the question again - Is it likely that GOD exists as anything other than a human construct?
    jar writes:
    And I have also answered that repeatedly but I'm willing to repeat it yet again for you.
    You haven't answered the question of likelihood.
    jar writes:
    That GOD exists and is the Creator of all that is, seen and unseen is a personal belief.
    Sure. You have faith. But what is likely?
    jar writes:
    But neither my belief nor your unbelief has anything to do with the reality of whether or not GOD exists.
    If something exists it exists. This applies to god, God, GOD, Kit-Kats, KIT-KATS, Bilbo Baggins, BILBO BAGGINS....and so on and so forth. Whether in upper or lower case.
    You can stop repeating this little tautology of yours because it really doesn't add anything.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 134 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 12:39 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 12:52 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 137 of 318 (675255)
    10-09-2012 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 136 by jar
    10-09-2012 12:52 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    jar writes:
    I believe it's likely that GOD exists.
    All believers in all gods believe it likely (or in some cases certain) that their god(s) exist.
    When it comes down to it there is nothing to distinguish your belief in GOD from anyone else's belief in any other god/God is there?
    jar writes:
    I think it is very unlikely any god(s) exist except as a human construct.
    There we have it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 136 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 12:52 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 138 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 1:09 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (2)
    Message 139 of 318 (675257)
    10-09-2012 1:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 138 by jar
    10-09-2012 1:09 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Look jar you are an old dog and you have been peddling this god, God, GOD trick for a long time. I don’t expect to be able to dissuade you from it. But this I’m just being nuanced defence of your self-serving, belief-re-enforcing definitions just doesn’t wash.
    The idea that hijacking commonly used terms and redefining them (such that the object of your own belief is elevated by definition above all those other human-construct-god-concepts) is the path to clarity and nuance rather than a method of imposing your assumptions into discussions about the existence of supernatural creators - Is ridiculous.
    But I’m sure the nuance will continue.....
    jar writes:
    There you have what?
    The special pleading?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 138 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 1:09 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 140 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 1:15 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 141 of 318 (675260)
    10-09-2012 1:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 140 by jar
    10-09-2012 1:15 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    jar writes:
    What special pleading?
    The special pleading that discludes your particular supernatural creator from being just one of those other human-construct-gods.
    jar writes:
    The topic is "Can you define god?"
    It is.
    jar writes:
    I responded to the topic.
    You responded in the way you respond to any theism related topic. You started bandying around your own self-serving definitions of GOD, God and god.
    jar writes:
    I explained MY position.
    Relentlessly. And I explained some of the inconsistencies your definitions result in - e.g. a theist who doesn't believe in any god(s)
    jar writes:
    I did not ask you to adopt my position.
    Oh well that is OK then. I guess you can say whatever you want and we should all just accept it without comment

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 140 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 1:15 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 142 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 1:39 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 143 of 318 (675264)
    10-09-2012 1:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 142 by jar
    10-09-2012 1:39 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    You are a theist (by any common definition) because you believe in the existence of a supernatural creator being (which is a god by any common definition).
    It really is that simple.
    jar writes:
    "I am a theist who believes GOD exists and that God(s) and god(s) are attempts by humans who are limited by the fact that being human so far we can only experience or describe anything in terms of what we see in this universe to describe what is actually beyond anything we can experience or describe."
    Yes I know what you believe. Quite why you think your personal beliefs are a basis for defining anything remains a bit of a mystery however......?
    jar writes:
    How do you get "we should all just accept it without comment" from "I did not ask you to adopt my position"?
    Where did you get the idea I thought you wanted me to adopt your position merely from my commenting upon it?
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 142 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 1:39 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 144 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:04 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 145 of 318 (675268)
    10-09-2012 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 144 by jar
    10-09-2012 2:04 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Yawn.
    Ignoring all topic related points and going on a you-said-I-said distraction is another of your much used debate tactics when in a spot.
    Seeing as we're both still here and both seem bored enough to keep conversing hows abouts we consider the topic from a fresh (and possibly less contentious) perspective?
    What is it that defines things as "god(s)"...?
    I (earlier) put forward a definition involving supernatural creators/controllers of aspects of observable reality and you (earlier) intimated that a "god" is whatever people decide to call a "god".
    With that in mind I'd be interested in your answers to the following:
  • If people believe me (or you if you prefer) to be a god does that make me/you an actual god?
  • If human belief alone is not enough then what are the qualifying criteria for being a god?
  • Have you ever seen the "Life of Brian"....?
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 144 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:04 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 146 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:26 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 147 of 318 (675271)
    10-09-2012 2:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 146 by jar
    10-09-2012 2:26 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Straggler writes:
    If people believe me (or you if you prefer) to be a god does that make me/you an actual god?
    jar writes:
    If people believe you are a god then yes, you may be a god.
    Well I suppose I might be... But is their belief alone enough on which to apply that term? If not - What else do I need to qualify as a genuine god?
    jar writes:
    If people believe I am a god they are simply wrong. I know I am not a god.
    Assuming they do believe you are a god - What is it that you are lacking which makes them wrong in their belief?
    Strags writes:
    Have you ever seen the "Life of Brian"....?
    jar writes:
    Many times. The first time was likely in the very early 80s. Still watch it every decade or so.
    Cool. It's a great film. But it highlights the error in defining things in terms of what people believe.
    JINKY is the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe (and all else) who happens to choose to manifest himself as a giant purple squirrel.
    JINKY is a god regardless of what anyone does or doesn't believe. Because being a "god" isn't dependent on human conviction. It's a term we apply to a certain sort of conceptual being (whether it actually exists or not)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 146 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:26 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 148 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:47 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 156 of 318 (675336)
    10-10-2012 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by jar
    10-10-2012 9:58 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    jar writes:
    Look at all the gods humans have defined over the years, Thor and Apollo and Ganesha and Coyote and Nun...
    And the supernatural-creator-being in which you believe.....

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 153 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 9:58 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 157 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:01 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 158 of 318 (675338)
    10-10-2012 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 148 by jar
    10-09-2012 2:47 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Straggler writes:
    But is their belief alone enough on which to apply that term? If not - What else do I need to qualify as a genuine god?
    jar writes:
    None that I can think of.
    Well being supernatural rather than natural seems to be a bit of a pre-requisite.
    So even if the multitudes believed that I was a god (in the same sort of way they decided Brian was the Messiah in the Life of Brian) they would be simply wrong.
    So belief isn't the defining factor in what is a god and what isn't.
    jar writes:
    It's not what I lack but rather what I am; I am human.
    So was Christ. Yet if he was who conventional Christians believe him to be that didn't stop him qualifying for godliness.
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 148 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:47 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:29 PM Straggler has replied

      
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