Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)

There's also the problem of forgetting to change your Hallowe'en Avatar back to normal... or is this the new, improved v2.0?

You've probably already read it, but I'll point you towards the more generic dealing-with-death post I made earlier in this thread - Message 30In a more specific (and hopefully helpful) sense: Would "in a better place" be similar to "being at peace"? Or something like that? I would imagine that there is nothing more peaceful than non-existance itself...As long as we exist in a reality worthy of intelligence, worries are a necessary aspect. The only way to be at absolute peace, would be to have absolutely no worries... you'd have to remove intelligence, or remove existance.So, on some levels, perhaps non-existance (if that is what actually awaits us) is "a better place" than living in our reality. A tricky subject. Again, I'll have to add the obligatory *I do not have kids* disclaimer.Are you worried about you? Or about your kids? The fact that you find it easier to tell them one thing over another may not have any connection with the fact of how they will receive your advice.That is, telling them they are in heaven may illicit more questions and unknowns and worries for them.Telling them that they are gone would give them an ending.Obviously, with your upbringing/education/background, talking about heaven is easier for you. Can we say which would be easier for your children? I cannot. You would have a better guess. I can say, though, that your children do not have the same upbringing/education/background that you do (or maybe they do? ..again, you would know this better than I).So again the questions are do you care about making this easier for your kids? Or for yourself?I cannot say that telling your kids about natural-death would be easier for them... I'm only asking these questions to make sure you and I are both on the same page here.Do you want your kids to have thoughts of dead pets in heaven? This would seem to provide instant caring for their emotional wounds, yet leave the door open for long-term potential harm whenever (ifever?) they discover "what all evidence we have points to happening."Telling them that death is a natural ending point may cause a bit more immediate grief. Again, your kids, your choice.I suppose that should wrap up talking a lot and not giving you any solid advice to follow. My work here is done

Actually, I meant this to be more of an area where theists (perhaps those more fundamentally inclined) could list the problems/issues they think would come with Atheism. Things like "you don't have a moral foundation" or "it is not possible to love while being an atheist"... you know, easy things to answer and show objective facts to the contrary.It appears, however, that no theists have issues with atheism and this has turned into more of a Dear Abby column I don't mind, though. All the questions brought up (including yours) are very important, large and real questions that everyone must face. This can be a place for atheists to discuss answers or maybe even just areas of solace for the hardest problems they face.I do admit that the questions coming from the atheists (again, including yours) are the hardest to answer, and some just plain may not have answers.Of course, the easy cop-out answer is the "if it's so important to you, you should leave her" answer. But, well, obviously you're past thinking about those such things or you wouldn't be here with the problem.So, on to the harder, longer "actually attempting to deal with the issue" answer I guarantee you, with as much ability as I have to read minds, that your wife thinks about you each time this is said as well. People who love each other care about one another. If your wife loves you, then she will care about you and what she believes is your eternal soul. There are unselfish reasons for her to do so (she can be worried about you) and selfish reasons as well (she may not want to "be alone" in heaven... or "without you.") All of those reasons are valid to create fear and worry in her heart.The way I see it, you have 3 paths to follow at varying degrees:Path 1 - Neutrality. Along the lines of "reaching the point where you don't talk about it much." Leave well enough alone. This will reduce any arguements or heated discussions, but you can't expect the issue to make any progress (one way or the other) while it is on this path. However, this path will likely be a necessary "rest stop" for the discussion when it reaches inevitable "hot points." You'll have to judge when and where to best use this time. (I do not envy the decisions you have in your future).Path 2 - Your Sake. Anything and everything that would lean her towards being okay with your Atheism. Although I do not recommend talking over large gaps. By "large gaps" I mean talking to her about atheism while she is still a very devoted Christian. A better approach would be to discuss things over much smaller gaps. Getting her to lean towards your thoughts about deism is still leaning towards your thoughts about atheism... just a much smaller step. Perhaps one she would find easier to discuss (and maybe even accept). The touchier she is to these discussions, the smaller the gaps will have to be for any progress to be made.Path 3 - Her Sake. Anything and everything that would lean you towards accepting Christianity. Again, if loving your wife is more important to you than personal theology... there is nothing wrong with converting for your wife. Don't let anyone tell you that such a thing is "living for someone else" or "not respecting yourself." Your priorities are yours alone to sort out for yourself. If you prioritize your personal relationship with your wife over your personal theology then that certainly is valid, and it is respecting yourself and it is not living for someone else. My only advice here is to make sure you're honest with yourself. Be honest with yourself about your own personal priorities.Overall - Take things easy.Don't talk about how when you die you think there is nothing.
Talk about how when you die you're not sure what will happen.Don't talk about how there is no objective, absolute moral system that anyone can point to.
Talk about how interesting it is that so many different people see things so differently.Don't talk about how there is no evidence that God exists.
Talk about how you have yet to be touched by God (as far as you know).I'm not sure if this is true with you, but it is true with me and I talk about it when I'm looking for common ground with believers I try to stress tentativity. When you talk about tentativity, it makes it sound more approachable and agnostic-like, which is more appealing (and less insulting) to those who do believe:People call me an atheist, and I call myself an atheist for simplicity's sake. But it's not so much that I don't believe in God. It's more that I don't believe in any specific God. If someone proposes Vishnu, I don't believe in that God. If someone proposes the Christian Bible God, I don't believe in that God. If someone proposes "a vague unknown entity"... I don't believe there's much point in believing in something that is vague and unknown. But to definitively answer the question "is there something??" the answer must be "I don't really know" because even the strictist of scientists must include some level of tentativity. So I live, and act, and run my life as if I'm an atheist, but I cannot say "for sure" that there is no God. How could I? How could anyone? None of us knows everything. It's just that with the knowledge I have, and the things I've seen... I don't think there's a God. That's what I mean when I say I don't believe. Not that I know there is no God... such knowledge is impossible... I don't believe in God is just my way of saying "I don't believe in your God, and I haven't been made aware of any personal God for myself." Obviously "I'm an atheist" is a lot simpler and gets the point across faster. I don't know. Maybe. You'll have to judge (of course). My thoughts against this would be that your wife loves you. Not a fake you, or even a faking-it-for-her-sake you. What if you do this, and you don't pull it off "just right" and she's left here thinking "Did he really mean that? If so, why didn't he say so sooner? If not, why would he lie to me when he knows I love and respect him for his honesty?" Just seems like a lot of things could go wrong. But, again, your wife, your life.Now that my easy part of writing a few words is over, I shall bid you good luck and send you on your way to, you know, actually deal with the difficult problem.

So does Nike: Just Do It.

I took longer Work... life... whatever. That's the nice thing about such forums as this. The text doesn't disappear. An interesting and very strange concept indeed. I agree that otherwise, there would be no one around to judge the honour. However, I find it the most honourable when people do good deeds when they know that no one is going to be aware of their actions. Of course, a conspiricist may say that "honour" was only created to get the gullible to act good for free I suppose it all depends on what you decide your priorities are going to be.Can honour exist without others being aware to make that judgement? Maybe, maybe not. Does it matter? I don't think so. Pondering too much about whether such-and-such an action is honourable or not removes one from pondering about whether or not they are being good. In which case... it starts to become counter-productive if one is looking to be honourable Interesting and very strange. What if "being good" is entirely based on what other people think? That is, I believe that good/bad actions are determined by how the people affected by those actions feel afterward. Therefore, in order for me to be good, I cannot do anything "regardless of what anyone else would think." I agree that a truly objective moral decision doesn't seem possible. One, because there doesn't seem to be any absolute morality that anyone can point to and say "there... that's moral!" Even if they did, it would still be a personal, subjective decision to follow such a list or not. Two, in my belief of good/bad, what is moral/good/honourable is entirely dependent on the subjective feelings of those being affected. Since different people react to the same situation in different ways... it is obvious that an objective moral situation is basically impossible.But, of course, that's just what I think. I cannot prove it. But no one (that I know of) has ever been able to prove any single standard of morality as "the best." Such a thing in itself is also subjective. Please do. I enjoy these conversations. I'm always on the look-out for learning anything that may be "better" or "more good" than what I currently believe to be honourable/good/moral.

If it is a simple "I do not like it" with no fear attached, then the answer is a simple "tought potatoes." And, with all things in life that we cannot control, it is simply a matter of maturity that is required to deal with things we cannot control yet do not like. Are you sure there is no fear attached with your problem of death being the end? I do not mean to say that you must take an irrational viewpoint, for I agree that would be intellectually dishonest. I only say that if you find solace in an irrational viewpoint, then it is okay to do so in this instance (that is, if fear - an irrational issue - is your problem, which it may not be) as long as you acknowledge that it is irrational.This method is honest in the way that it is also honest to acknowlede that your favourite colour is an irrational choice. It would not be honest to believe that your choice of favourite colour was not a subjective choice dependant on your personal experience/history/inclinations. However, it doesn't sound like you fit the criteria for such a method to get around this issue anyway: Of course, if you do not find solace with such a resolution, then yes, it would be intellectually dishonest for you to force such a position upon yourself, and yes, I agree that such a method for dealing with this issue is not for you.To me, it sounds like you first need to define what, specifically, your problem is with death being the end. If you are not afraid of it, what is wrong? Do you simply just not like it? Are you extremely attached to some other alternative you can imagine and desire? Wouldn't that be some form of an irrational fear of not-being-able-to-get-what-you-want?I am having a hard time thinking of a reason why you cannot accept death being the end, and be okay with that, unless you are somehow irrationally averse to that outcome. That is, I do not think it is possible for you to have an objective issue with death being the end. If that is simply the rules of this reality... the way things are, how can there possible be a reality-based, rational objection?Granted, the irrational aversity may not be fear-based, but then the first step would be to identify what the aversity is based on before trying to tackle how to solve it.

Heh... really, it's not that big of a deal.I know that the formality and admin-monitoring of this place can seem a bit intimidating at first. But, seriously, as long as you're talking about the topic in some way, feel free to post anything you want in any thread.And, if you have something to say that isn't on topic... you can still say that at anytime. Just propose a new thread (you can even reference any other thread for continuity purposes).All they ask for around here is for people to respect "staying on topic". The reason for that is to keep interesting subjects from getting lost. Keeping things on topic makes it easy to search the forums for whatever you may be looking for. There really isn't any censorship or writing-skill requirements or anything like that.As long as your thoughts are related to the topic, please feel free to share your opinions and reasoning. That is, afterall, exactly what keeps forums like this going... people posting.And welcome to EvC, it's fun here (and really not as strict or formal as it may appear).

Hello Nunquam, welcome to EvC! Most other people will reply to your messages promptly. I, however, am above such commonalities and prefer to make people wait.And, today, that's the best apology you'll get out of me "Consequently, we will never see each other again." Implies that you feel uncomfortable because when you die, you won't be able to see your friends and family... and you'll miss them. But... how can you miss something when you don't exist to feel remorse in any way? You seem to be dreading the thought of a future feeling that will never come upon you.If, indeed, you die and you do miss seeing your friends and family, then death is not "the end" and you are existing within some sort of afterlife, and what you think atheism entails isn't actually true.I think you need to reflect more upon what "non-existence" really entails, and how it will be impossible for you (or your friends/family) to feel anything at all... including any negativity or remorse or "missing them" kind of thoughts.Also, remember that "atheism" doesn't necessarily mean that you do not believe in any afterlife. It just means you don't beleive in any afterlife that includes a God.I do agree, however, that all objective evidence we have to go on currently shows us that death is "the end." Whether or not that's 100% true, only the adventure of death knows. ...and, this is the part where I would apologize for not reading your whole message before replying to the first paragraph and realizing that you already know everything I just talked about and likely have moved on from this issue on your own.That's what I would have said, but I already apologized enough for today and I don't feel like doing it again So I shall post my ramblings and hopefully someone, somewhere will get a smile. And everyone else will just think I'm an idiot Have a good time looking around these forums, it's a good place to learn a lot.

I think your current issue was already brought up in Message 34

Does anyone have answers for these questions?
Must all questions have answers?

Why is life not always fair
Because life is full of people who all have free will. Or, at least, enough of an illusion of free will to give us an illusion of 'fairness.'
If you're reading this, my first comment is... yes, it is unfair to those that suffer that you have such a life where you're able to look up junk like this on the internet. You have it so bad. "Fair" is based on perspective. If you think your life is unfair, you're likely not considering those beneath you and only those you think are above you.

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But, more seriously, life is unfair because mean people exist.

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Shouldn't there be justice?
No.
If we want to build a society so we can live and prosper in a safe, healthy environment. Then yes. But this is a choice, not some sort of intrinsic virtue. Because building and living within such a society is a choice (for those lucky enough to have the option), we must all work at helping justice along in our society. We must be good people to limit the problems. We must use the existing systems we've developed to deal with the issues. We must remain vigilant in protecting and advancing those systems. It is up to us, and no one else.
Justice is not some sort of god-given right. If it were, then all the good people would be happy and ridiculously evil things like the black-market sex-slave industry would not exist. Obviously, Justice is only something we've created. And it is a wondrous thing. But we cannot slack-off and "leave it to God" to figure out. We are responsible and if we want Justice than we must participate and focus on our social tools.

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Why are humans so intrinsically selfish?
Not sure if they are. But I'll reframe the question to be: Why do humans seem so intrinsically selfish?
The cop-out answer - They likely aren't, and you're just a victim of your own confirmation bias. Stop playing the the-grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side game and take some responsibility. Start with a good, thorough, honest inventory of what you have. Then make realistic steps from there to improve to where you'd like to be. Be patient, it's a slow process. And remember it's not a race against everyone else, it's only a game you play against yourself. If you think you're losing, then you're playing it wrong.

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The serious answer - We humans are competitive. Along with that comes a motivation to get whatever we can out of whatever's available. This is an instict. To overcome our instincts, we need to use our intelligence. That's what it's there for. We can decide to eat healthy when we're hungry, we can decide to be understanding and forgiving when an accident occurs and we're hurt, and we can decide to override our competitive instincts with a more beneficial lifestyle focus.

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If a man does whats good and finds others cheating or being unfairly prosperous, how can we live with the unfairness?
Two levels to this:
Level 1 - The 'unfairness' is large, like stealing money from a bank or killing to get ahead or something. That's what police and the other institutions are for, use them.
Level 2 - The 'unfairness' is not governed by existing laws. Use your intelligence. It is a basic human instinct to see something someone else has and 'want' it for ourselves, or to feel upset when we see someone get more in return for less (or equal) investment that we put in. But, these are instincts and we have intelligence to overcome them.
Think about all the things you have that others don't.
Think about if you'd actually be okay living with the decision of the "cheater" the rest of your life... if 'yes' then you have other issues (see other Stile threads about morality for more information, like this one: Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others)
Think about if it "really matters" or not.
Yes it hurts, and yes it feels bad to feel cheated or beaten or missing out on something... but remember that they are instinctual feelings and can be dealt with by using our intelligence.
If you are unable to deal with the feelings, it is merely a matter of education. That's what therapists and psychiatrists are there for. They are trained to help educate you on how to use your intelligence to deal with your feelings. Some issues can be physical ailments (incorrect levels of this or that chemical in your system) and there can be ways to help deal with that as well.
Your intelligence is your most powerful weapon in these matters. With enough education, imagination and willingness to try... I have faith that it is capable of dealing with any issue.

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Of course, that's a rather general response. But the question itself is rather general. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific concerns you'd like to try and deal with.

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I find that I want someone in charge to essentially favor me and give me an equalizing edge.
Me too. I also want a new car where I never have to pay for oil changes.
Again, this is your intelligence coming up with a way to try and help you deal with the issues you're facing (unfairness, feeling left behind...). Sometimes I bet this idea of Someone favouring you helps a lot. Other times (most times I'm willing to bet?) it's not too much help. But it does help somewhat... and that's without you even trying to use your intelligence... it did that all on it's own! Think about the potential you could have if you purposefully focus your intelligence into working on a solution!
Maybe it will only help slightly more, maybe there is no solution and we need to work on using our intelligence to deal with acceptance rather than superiority.
But how will we know if we don't try?

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Your intelligence and imagination are awesome weapons against instinctual behaviour. I suggest you use them. Many, many people have gone their entire lives without using their intelligence to overcome their instincts. Seems like a waste of a very nice brain, if you ask me.

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Edited by Stile, : Added cool little bullet-things to the points being discussed. Saw Phat using them and didn't know what they were at first... but I think they're cool. And... Yo' mamma.