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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 318 (675030)
10-05-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
10-05-2012 9:26 AM


Re: To define God is to define an Ultimate
jar writes:
Now when it comes to gods we find even greater specificity. We can describe Ganesha or Apollo or Thor in pretty great detail, outline their capabilities and limitations, describe their appearance, list their attributes. Very seldom are they a general or universal ultimate.
But GOD, if GOD exists is completely beyond anything we find in the Natural World. As long as we too are part of the Natural World we are limited.
I agree with you that GOD,if GOD exists, is not a part of the natural world. But when I get specific and try and introduce Jesus the way many humans describe Him as---an envoy from GOD to man--you keep turning him back into a human and befuddling up the mess by not giving him dual attributes of divinity and humanity. In so doing, you also limit we humans to not being capable of being bestowed with any favor from GOD (If She sxists) and even going so far as to suggest that I should not expect such favor. My point is, whats worship even worth? I may as well be an atheist!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 9:26 AM jar has replied

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 Message 95 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 10:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 318 (675032)
10-05-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
10-05-2012 10:07 AM


Re: To define God is to define an Ultimate
jar writes:
Forget credit, merit badges, salvation, reward and just do what's right.
When I do, the old questions still pop up.
  • Why is life not always fair? Shouldn't there be justice? Why are humans so intrinsically selfish? If a man does whats good and finds others cheating or being unfairly prosperous, how can we live with the unfairness?
    I find that I want someone in charge to essentially favor me and give me an equalizing edge.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 95 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 10:07 AM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 113 of 318 (675093)
    10-05-2012 4:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Straggler
    10-05-2012 1:42 PM


    IF as Objectivity
    Straggler writes:
    Anything defined as unknowable is by definition a human construct (whether it exists or not). How could it possibly be otherwise?
    So if an actual creature existed on a planet 100 billion light years away, they would have to be a human construct? I don't follow your line of logic.
    All jar seems to be saying is that it is possible that a Creator could exist whether or not all, some, or one human "constructed" the idea. It is irrelevant who believes in such a Deity. It is irrelevant who can or cannot even imagine such a Deity. IF this Deity exists, it exists regardless of our beliefs, perceptions, logic, or ability to frame an issue. And if not, then not. Period.
    Edited by Phat, :

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     Message 106 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 1:42 PM Straggler has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 114 of 318 (675097)
    10-05-2012 5:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by jar
    10-05-2012 4:30 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    I think that what Straggler is trying to prove to us is that the "construct" itself is a human construct. That in order for GOD to exist, we humans need awareness. Otherwise we would be unaware and thus unable to objectify such an idea...thus rendering the idea as questionable.
    I can see where GOD could exist regardless of my acknowledgement,
    but one could argue that my very acknowledgement of such an idea amounts to a prior human construct.
    Does that make sense?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 4:30 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
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    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 117 of 318 (675120)
    10-06-2012 8:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 116 by jar
    10-05-2012 5:32 PM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    you are just saying that because this is faith&belief!

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 123 of 318 (675199)
    10-08-2012 5:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 120 by Straggler
    10-07-2012 11:55 AM


    Re: IF as Objectivity
    Straggler writes:
    If something is unknowable, imperceptible etc. etc. etc. then where did any idea that it exists come from?
    Imagination. Obviously. It cannot, by definition be otherwise can it?
    Now by some fluke of blind random chance one may have imagined something that conceivably exists out there. Maybe there is a place out in the universe called Middle Earth full of hobbits and wizards etc. etc.
    But I would suggest it unlikely.......Wouldn't you?
    We are talking only of a Creator of all seen and unseen. We are not assigning this Creator any character or image beyond this. Granted we are imagining/believing that such a character may exist, and further we are speculating that if such a character exists He/She/It need not be a product of our imagination. This is a simple either/or construct. There is no way to assign it probability.
    Probability can only be assigned from a finite set of variables...such as collective human imaginations. I suppose for the sake of this argument, such a concept need not exist for you if you cant imagine it. This, however, does not prove that it only exists in the imagination of one or many.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 130 of 318 (675234)
    10-09-2012 7:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Straggler
    10-09-2012 7:36 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Straggler,replying to jar writes:
    You have defined the object of your belief (i.e. GOD) as that which is NOT a human construct.
    Yet you also start many of your arguments with the faux-reasonable IF GOD exists..
    But if GOD is neither a human construct nor something that existswhat is it?
    This is where the answer depends solely on your individual belief. If GOD does not exist, there is no human construct, same as if He/She/It does exist. By definition, GOD has no definition apart from an eternally living entity, presumed intelligent beyond human capability at definition.
    Straggler writes:
  • As a theist which god(s) do you believe exist?
  • One will suffice, in my belief.
  • Do you accept the possibility that GOD does not exist?
  • Assuming that possibility by definition includes all answers, then yes. Again, I assign nor see no evidence for a numerical probability, however. (apart from 50/50)
  • Do you accept that if GOD does not exist then GOD is a human construct?
  • See above.(If GOD does not exist, there is no human construct, same as if He/She/It does exist. By definition, GOD has no definition apart from an eternally living entity, presumed intelligent beyond human capability at definition.
    )

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Straggler, posted 10-09-2012 7:36 AM Straggler has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 149 of 318 (675273)
    10-09-2012 2:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
    04-21-2012 5:37 PM


    Re: Defing God
    Ringo writes:
    If there is only one God, what does a name distinguish Him from?
    gods, I suppose. And I too tend to use jars description, though perhaps differently than he does. GOD, by definition of the word, is indeed beyond description or definition. The word merely gathers all that power and wisdom and whatever else into a term.

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    Phat
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    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 150 of 318 (675282)
    10-09-2012 7:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 131 by Straggler
    10-09-2012 9:35 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Where are you getting 50/50 from?
    GOD either exists or does NOT exist. Where are you getting "likely" from?
    A supernatural intelligent creator IS a definition.
    Yes, but that is about as far as we can go. though some Christians extrapolate the character of Jesus as well as OT writings at trying to conceptualize GOD. My belief is that GOD is beyond definition or conceptualization...understanding is a better word.
    Of course there is a human construct!! How can anyone claim to believe in something if they have absolutely no conception of what it is they believe in?
    The very idea of a conceptless concept is absurd!!!!!
    Are you suggesting that an idea without evidence or concept is absurd? Logical, perhaps...but why do you have problems believing in a power greater than the capability of the human mind to define?

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 154 of 318 (675314)
    10-10-2012 10:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 153 by jar
    10-10-2012 9:58 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    jar writes:
    Humans are limited simply because we are human and part of this natural world and so for us to talk about and discuss something our descriptions and definitions are based on this natural world.
    As a Christian, do you think its naive of me to believe that GOD cares about me and/or you and Onifre and straggler and all of we humans any more than He cares about pond scum, or biological lifeforms, or life on Mars?

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 184 of 318 (675394)
    10-11-2012 1:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 182 by onifre
    10-10-2012 3:38 PM


    Right or Wrong
    Onifre writes:
    It's not that it's wrong, it's that you're not really saying anything that can be right or wrong. It's just a mess of words with no direction or real point.
    When it comes to subjective beliefs, there is no absolute right or wrong involved. The criteria is not 100% empirical.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 195 of 318 (675448)
    10-11-2012 12:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 191 by Straggler
    10-11-2012 10:55 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    Straggler,to jar writes:
    You can’t legitimately just define the object of your belief into existence jar.
    Why not? IIRC, He only asserts possible existence, anyway.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 217 of 318 (675554)
    10-12-2012 11:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
    10-12-2012 10:29 AM


    There is no winner in this debate
    Straggler,addressing jar writes:
    How can you believe in the existence of something without having any idea what it is?
    This is the essence of being a believer. It is also why you are not one, seeing as how you find yourself unable to do such a thing.
    And is there any reason at all to give this GOD concept any more merit, consideration or credence than any other "unknowable" entity I can conceive of or is your reason for doing so entirely personal irrational belief?
    Jar answered you.
    jar writes:
    And again, I have answered your question many times.
    Yes, my belief in GOD is unreasonable, illogical and irrational.
    I've never said otherwise.
    What you don't seem to get is that the difference between GOD, if GOD exists and all of the others is that the others have a cultural identity. As does the Christian God, as does Jesus, Allah, etc etc etc. the very definition of GOD, if GOD exists is exactly that. I Am that I AM.
    Now...I DO see where you would label that GOD as the same as all the rest. Which is why by definition you are not a believer. You simply do not acknowledge the belief.
    How can you believe in the existence of something without having any idea what it is?
    this is where the IF comes in. You won't even allow yourself to entertain the idea of an IF without the assurance of evidence or substance or reason. Absence of Belief obviously negates the belief of anything.
    There is no logical "winner" in any debate between a believer and an unbeliever. Logic cannot trump belief, nor can belief trump logic. It is a classic stalemate.
    Edited by Phat, : sub title

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 213 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 10:29 AM Straggler has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 220 of 318 (675561)
    10-12-2012 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 218 by Straggler
    10-12-2012 11:53 AM


    Nuances
    and what would your nuance be? do we agree to disagree, or do we disagree to disagree?

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 221 of 318 (675562)
    10-12-2012 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 214 by jar
    10-12-2012 10:34 AM


    Rationality versus Irrationality
    jar writes:
    Yes, my belief in GOD is unreasonable, illogical and irrational.
  • Is it even possible for belief in GOD to be rational without turning it into a belief in God?
  • Do you think that atheism is by and large more rational than belief?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 214 by jar, posted 10-12-2012 10:34 AM jar has replied

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