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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
onifre
Member (Idle past 998 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 151 of 318 (675296)
10-10-2012 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
10-08-2012 5:49 AM


Re: IF as Objectivity
We are talking only of a Creator of all seen and unseen. We are not assigning this Creator any character or image beyond this.

Well shit, is there any other characteristic or image that you left out? "Creator of everything you can see and not see" pretty much covers it all.

This, however, does not prove that it only exists in the imagination of one or many.

It has to only exist in your imagination if you've never witnessed it and it is "unknowable". YOU (and other human beings) are the only one's assigning it it's characteristics, out of sheer imagination, then you make the claim that hey maybe we nailed it. You're taking guesses at best.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 5:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 998 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 152 of 318 (675297)
10-10-2012 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by jar
10-09-2012 2:26 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Human belief is enough to define a god.

If that's the case then god is a purely imagined concept. In fact the word pretty much becomes meaningless.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 9:58 AM onifre has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 153 of 318 (675309)
10-10-2012 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by onifre
10-10-2012 3:02 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
It is no more meaningless than any other human construct.

At worst it is fantasy and at best it is an approximation. a caricature, a label.

Look at all the gods humans have defined over the years, Thor and Apollo and Ganesha and Coyote and Nun...

Humans are limited simply because we are human and part of this natural world and so for us to talk about and discuss something our descriptions and definitions are based on this natural world.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 3:02 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 10-10-2012 10:59 AM jar has responded
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 10-10-2012 12:55 PM jar has responded
 Message 160 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 1:12 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12045
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 154 of 318 (675314)
10-10-2012 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
10-10-2012 9:58 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
jar writes:


Humans are limited simply because we are human and part of this natural world and so for us to talk about and discuss something our descriptions and definitions are based on this natural world.

As a Christian, do you think its naive of me to believe that GOD cares about me and/or you and Onifre and straggler and all of we humans any more than He cares about pond scum, or biological lifeforms, or life on Mars?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 9:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 11:04 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 318 (675315)
10-10-2012 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
10-10-2012 10:59 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
If that is how you define God then it is fine. If that belief helps you then so be it, but remember that your beliefs are simply that and may or may not reflect reality.

In addition, be aware of when you are using your god as a crutch and excuse; when you are saying "Not my job, leave it for the Jesus crew."


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 10-10-2012 10:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 156 of 318 (675336)
10-10-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
10-10-2012 9:58 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
jar writes:

Look at all the gods humans have defined over the years, Thor and Apollo and Ganesha and Coyote and Nun...

And the supernatural-creator-being in which you believe.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 9:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:01 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 318 (675337)
10-10-2012 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Straggler
10-10-2012 12:55 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Well, the question of GOD's existence is still open however I believe that there is a very high probability that GOD, if GOD exists, will be entirely different than anything I can imagine.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 10-10-2012 12:55 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Straggler, posted 10-10-2012 1:11 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 161 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 1:21 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 158 of 318 (675338)
10-10-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
10-09-2012 2:47 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Straggler writes:

But is their belief alone enough on which to apply that term? If not - What else do I need to qualify as a genuine god?

jar writes:

None that I can think of.

Well being supernatural rather than natural seems to be a bit of a pre-requisite.

So even if the multitudes believed that I was a god (in the same sort of way they decided Brian was the Messiah in the Life of Brian) they would be simply wrong.

So belief isn't the defining factor in what is a god and what isn't.

jar writes:

It's not what I lack but rather what I am; I am human.

So was Christ. Yet if he was who conventional Christians believe him to be that didn't stop him qualifying for godliness.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 10-09-2012 2:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:29 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 159 of 318 (675339)
10-10-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
10-10-2012 1:01 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I'm not sure why you still think putting it in capitals makes the existence of the supernatural-creator-being (AKA god) you believe in any more likely to exist than any other conceivable yet "unknowable" entity.....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:01 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 998 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 160 of 318 (675340)
10-10-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
10-10-2012 9:58 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
It is no more meaningless than any other human construct.

Can you give me an example of another one that you would say is just as meaningless?

At worst it is fantasy and at best it is an approximation.

An approximation of what though? If it can be anything you want it to be then what the flip are you describing?

...descriptions and definitions are based on this natural world.

You are using your imagination to describe and define something YOU imagined. What limits are you talking about?

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 9:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:25 PM onifre has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 998 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 161 of 318 (675341)
10-10-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
10-10-2012 1:01 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Well, the question of GOD's existence is still open however I believe that there is a very high probability that GOD, if GOD exists, will be entirely different than anything I can imagine.

You have imagined it would be a creator of everything we see and do not see. Do you now believe it will be something different than that?

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:30 PM onifre has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 162 of 318 (675342)
10-10-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by onifre
10-10-2012 1:12 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Sure, unicorns or love or honor or humor.

Well the limits I am referring to are the fact that I am human and within this universe. I can imagine things but only within the constraints of things I might be able to experience. For example, unicorns are somewhat similar to horses, love, honor and humor are personal and individual and depend on teh sum of experiences of that individual.

The term electron is another example, it may or may not be what we think it is but we can develop words that describe how we experience whatever it is an "electron" really is.

As I said in Message 153:

quote:
It is no more meaningless than any other human construct.

At worst it is fantasy and at best it is an approximation. a caricature, a label.

Look at all the gods humans have defined over the years, Thor and Apollo and Ganesha and Coyote and Nun...

Humans are limited simply because we are human and part of this natural world and so for us to talk about and discuss something our descriptions and definitions are based on this natural world.



Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 1:12 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 1:49 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 318 (675343)
10-10-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Straggler
10-10-2012 1:07 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Many people believe many things.

I'm not at all sure what "supernatural" is other than a label with a very nebulous bound, and I'm not at all sure how to test or determine if something is supernatural as long as I am but a human with the limitations of being human.

And remember, I do distinguish between GOD, God and god.

I see no reason to think you might not be a god.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 10-10-2012 1:07 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Straggler, posted 10-10-2012 1:39 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 164 of 318 (675344)
10-10-2012 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
10-09-2012 7:58 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Phat writes:

GOD either exists or does NOT exist.

This is tautologically true of anything. Why you and jar keep repeating it about GOD baffles me. I either exist or I don't. You either exist or you don't. Brad Pitt either exists or he doesn't. JINKY the giant purple ethereal squirrel eiether exists or he doesn't. So what?

What is the point you are making with this pointlessly recited tautology? Are you suggesting that if something either exists or it doesn't then there is a 50-50 chance either way? If so - That is just bonkers!!!!

Phat writes:

Where are you getting "likely" from?

The evidence pertaining to the human ability and proclivity to invent such things as compared to the evidence that such things are even a possibility beyond philosophical conjecture. The simple (yet essentially inarguable) basis that evidenced conclusions are more likely to be correct than un-evidenced ones.

Straggler writes:

A supernatural intelligent creator IS a definition.

Phat writes:

Yes, but that is about as far as we can go.

Do we need to go any further than that?

Phat there is no much fabled "absence of evidence" here. All human claims are made in the context of human history, psychology and culture. And no claim of any supernatural-creator-superbeing has ever been correct yet. Simply retreating into vaguety isn't an answer to this failed hypothesis except for those who just can't let go. Indeed we know there are many reasons why humans are deeply inclined towards such erroneaous explanations and notions.

Straggler writes:

Of course there is a human construct!! How can anyone claim to believe in something if they have absolutely no conception of what it is they believe in? The very idea of a conceptless concept is absurd!!!!!

Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that an idea without evidence or concept is absurd?

Can you explain to me what an idea without concept even means? Because you seem to be claiming to believe in something without having any concept of what it is you believe in. And that is absurd.

Phat writes:

...but why do you have problems believing in a power greater than the capability of the human mind to define?

I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with people denying that this is a concept.....

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-09-2012 7:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 318 (675345)
10-10-2012 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by onifre
10-10-2012 1:21 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I believe that GOD is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, but that is simply my belief and has nothing to do with what GOD might actually be.

I very well could be wrong.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 1:21 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 1:38 PM jar has responded

  
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