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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 181 of 318 (675365)
10-10-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by onifre
10-10-2012 3:33 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I might well be wrong. But for now, it's the best I can do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 3:33 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 3:38 PM jar has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 182 of 318 (675366)
10-10-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
10-10-2012 3:34 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
But what are you doing?

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you're not really saying anything that can be right or wrong. It's just a mess of words with no direction or real point.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 3:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 3:43 PM onifre has not yet responded
 Message 184 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-11-2012 1:42 AM onifre has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 183 of 318 (675367)
10-10-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by onifre
10-10-2012 3:38 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Okay, I have no problem if that is what you think.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 3:38 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 184 of 318 (675394)
10-11-2012 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by onifre
10-10-2012 3:38 PM


Right or Wrong
Onifre writes:

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you're not really saying anything that can be right or wrong. It's just a mess of words with no direction or real point.

When it comes to subjective beliefs, there is no absolute right or wrong involved. The criteria is not 100% empirical.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 10-10-2012 3:38 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 8:40 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 196 by onifre, posted 10-11-2012 1:58 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 185 of 318 (675411)
10-11-2012 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
10-10-2012 1:48 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
jar writes:

Your lack of supernatural powers (whatever they are) would preclude you from being GOD but not God or god.

Can you give me an example of a god or a God that isn't supernatural or doesn't have supernatural abilities?

(Note - As usual one is forced to adopt your terminology and thus implicitly your assumptions when discussing these things with you. But there remains absolutely nothing to distinguish the supernatural creator -aka GOD - you happen to believe in from any of the other such beings you have described as "unlikely" except for some capital letters and your own personal inclinations dressed up as definitions)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 1:48 PM jar has responded

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 Message 188 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 9:52 AM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 186 of 318 (675412)
10-11-2012 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by jar
10-10-2012 3:17 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
jar writes:

GOD, if GOD exists, really is different than being natural.

How do you know this?

Or are you just stating a personal belief dressed up as a definition again?


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 Message 179 by jar, posted 10-10-2012 3:17 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 187 of 318 (675413)
10-11-2012 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Thugpreacha
10-11-2012 1:42 AM


Re: Right or Wrong
Phat writes:

When it comes to subjective beliefs, there is no absolute right or wrong involved.

The question of whether something exists or not is not the same as asking whether one prefers red to blue. So what subjective belief are we talking about here?

And the question of defining the term god (or GOD or squirrel or paperclip or electron or whatever) isn't just a subjective free-for-all either.

The entire point of definitions is to be objective. Unless a definition leads to common conceptual use of terminology there is absolutely no point to it.

Phat writes:

The criteria is not 100% empirical.

I'm not sure what being "100% empirical" has to do with defining things or the absurd idea that one can believe in the existence of something without having any notion of what it is one believes in the existence of!!!

But the thing is you do believe in something. The concept you have described is that of an unknowable-unimaginable-supernatural-hyperintelligent-creator-being. It's vague. But it is sufficiently defined to be subjected to critical consideration.

And critical consideration leads inexorably to us asking why this "thing" is worthy of any more credence or consideration than any other "unknowable" entity I could put forward.

A question to which I have yet to see an answer......


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 Message 184 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-11-2012 1:42 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 188 of 318 (675424)
10-11-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Straggler
10-11-2012 8:15 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Can you give me an example of a god or a God that isn't supernatural or doesn't have supernatural abilities?

All of the Gods or gods.

The difference is between belief or assertion and actuality.

That's both the difference and the problem.

As long as I am simply human and existing within this world I can't even imagine anyway to test something that really was supernatural. We can test to determine if something is not supernatural but I see no way to determine that something really is supernatural.

Which also should answer your next post

jar writes:

GOD, if GOD exists, really is different than being natural.


How do you know this?

Or are you just stating a personal belief dressed up as a definition again?

GOD, if GOD exists would really be supernatural, not because you or I believe or assert or claim that it is supernatural but rather because it IS supernatural.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 8:15 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 10:05 AM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 189 of 318 (675426)
10-11-2012 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by jar
10-11-2012 9:52 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Straggler writes:

Can you give me an example of a god or a God that isn't supernatural or doesn't have supernatural abilities?

jar writes:

All of the Gods or gods.

I am bewildered as to how Thor or Zeus or Yahweh, as commonly described, can be considered anything other than supernatural beings. Can you explain how they are not?

jar writes:

GOD, if GOD exists would really be supernatural, not because you or I believe or assert or claim that it is supernatural but rather because it IS supernatural.

How do you know that GOD "IS supernatural" except by means of some human constructed definitions pertaining to necessarily imagined notions such as 'existing outside of nature'....?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 9:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 10:24 AM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 190 of 318 (675430)
10-11-2012 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Straggler
10-11-2012 10:05 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I think I've answered that several times for you but I'm willing to try again.

The answer is the difference between actually being the thing and simply being asserted to be the thing; the difference between the map and the territory.

Yahweh is a good example; Yahweh changes and evolves over time as human ideas about gods evolve but throughout most of that evolution, even in the relatively late example of the god found in Genesis 1, we still see human characteristics. The much older god found in Genesis 2&3 is far more like a King or Prince, powerful, commanding powerful servants, able to pass decrees and enforce them. But it still creates by hand, is learning on the job, can be fearful and unsure, compassionate but stern.

Thor and Zeus and Yahweh are human constructs, caricatures, attempts to explain the (at the time) unexplainable.

All the Gods and gods are just that, human attempts to explain the unexplainable.

But GOD, if GOD exists, would be the reality.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 10:05 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 10:55 AM jar has responded
 Message 197 by onifre, posted 10-11-2012 2:09 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 191 of 318 (675436)
10-11-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by jar
10-11-2012 10:24 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
jar writes:

Thor and Zeus and Yahweh are human constructs, caricatures, attempts to explain the (at the time) unexplainable.

This doesn't preclude them from being supernatural beings though does it?

Straggler writes:

Can you give me an example of a god or a God that isn't supernatural or doesn't have supernatural abilities?

jar writes:

All of the Gods or gods.

You still haven't explained how Thor or Zeus or Yahweh, as commonly described, can be considered anything other than supernatural beings.

jar writes:

The answer is the difference between actually being the thing and simply being asserted to be the thing;…

Since when does does being supernatural correspond to being an actuality? It is perfectly possible to be both supernatural and fictional. E.g. Voldermort.

jar writes:

….the difference between the map and the territory.

It isn't possible to even a attempt a map of a territory that is defined as "unknowable"......

jar writes:

All the Gods and gods are just that, human attempts to explain the unexplainable.

And this GOD you speak of is no different. The unexplained observable phenomenon in question is human belief in the existence of gods. And your proposed answer to this phenomenon is that there really is something (which you are calling GOD) which is the source of these beliefs. Yours is just the ultimate god of the ultimate gap. The gap that is the concept of god itself.

jar writes:

But GOD, if GOD exists, would be the reality.

You can’t legitimately just define the object of your belief into existence jar. Yours is just a god of the gaps with knobs on. However else you seek to define it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 10:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 11:01 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 195 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-11-2012 12:28 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 192 of 318 (675437)
10-11-2012 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Straggler
10-11-2012 10:55 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
It isn't possible to even a attempt a map of a territory that is defined as "unknowable"......

Of course you can and humans are very good at it, we just make shit up or try to describe it in terms of things we can know.

As I have said, I see no way to determine if something IS supernatural as long as I am simply a living human.

I am open to suggestions though.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 10:55 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 12:25 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 193 of 318 (675446)
10-11-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
10-11-2012 11:01 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Do you agree that Voldermort is a fictional supernatural being?

jar writes:

As I have said, I see no way to determine if something IS supernatural as long as I am simply a living human. I am open to suggestions though.

Well by looking at the entity/concept in question and comparing it's attributes to the definition of supernatural.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 11:01 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 10-11-2012 12:27 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 194 of 318 (675447)
10-11-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Straggler
10-11-2012 12:25 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I agree that Voldermort is a fictional character that has been labeled as being supernatural.

But I also have absolutely no idea what real supernatural is or means.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 12:25 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 2:13 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 195 of 318 (675448)
10-11-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Straggler
10-11-2012 10:55 AM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Straggler,to jar writes:

You can’t legitimately just define the object of your belief into existence jar.

Why not? IIRC, He only asserts possible existence, anyway.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 10:55 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 10-11-2012 2:28 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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