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Author | Topic: Can You define God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I agree with you that GOD,if GOD exists, is not a part of the natural world. But when I get specific and try and introduce Jesus the way many humans describe Him as---an envoy from GOD to man--you keep turning him back into a human and befuddling up the mess by not giving him dual attributes of divinity and humanity. In so doing, you also limit we humans to not being capable of being bestowed with any favor from GOD (If She sxists) and even going so far as to suggest that I should not expect such favor. My point is, whats worship even worth? I may as well be an atheist!
Now when it comes to gods we find even greater specificity. We can describe Ganesha or Apollo or Thor in pretty great detail, outline their capabilities and limitations, describe their appearance, list their attributes. Very seldom are they a general or universal ultimate. But GOD, if GOD exists is completely beyond anything we find in the Natural World. As long as we too are part of the Natural World we are limited.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: When I do, the old questions still pop up.
Forget credit, merit badges, salvation, reward and just do what's right. I find that I want someone in charge to essentially favor me and give me an equalizing edge.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: So if an actual creature existed on a planet 100 billion light years away, they would have to be a human construct? I don't follow your line of logic. Anything defined as unknowable is by definition a human construct (whether it exists or not). How could it possibly be otherwise? All jar seems to be saying is that it is possible that a Creator could exist whether or not all, some, or one human "constructed" the idea. It is irrelevant who believes in such a Deity. It is irrelevant who can or cannot even imagine such a Deity. IF this Deity exists, it exists regardless of our beliefs, perceptions, logic, or ability to frame an issue. And if not, then not. Period. Edited by Phat, :
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I think that what Straggler is trying to prove to us is that the "construct" itself is a human construct. That in order for GOD to exist, we humans need awareness. Otherwise we would be unaware and thus unable to objectify such an idea...thus rendering the idea as questionable.
I can see where GOD could exist regardless of my acknowledgement, but one could argue that my very acknowledgement of such an idea amounts to a prior human construct. Does that make sense?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
you are just saying that because this is faith&belief!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: We are talking only of a Creator of all seen and unseen. We are not assigning this Creator any character or image beyond this. Granted we are imagining/believing that such a character may exist, and further we are speculating that if such a character exists He/She/It need not be a product of our imagination. This is a simple either/or construct. There is no way to assign it probability. If something is unknowable, imperceptible etc. etc. etc. then where did any idea that it exists come from? Imagination. Obviously. It cannot, by definition be otherwise can it? Now by some fluke of blind random chance one may have imagined something that conceivably exists out there. Maybe there is a place out in the universe called Middle Earth full of hobbits and wizards etc. etc. But I would suggest it unlikely.......Wouldn't you? Probability can only be assigned from a finite set of variables...such as collective human imaginations. I suppose for the sake of this argument, such a concept need not exist for you if you cant imagine it. This, however, does not prove that it only exists in the imagination of one or many. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler,replying to jar writes: This is where the answer depends solely on your individual belief. If GOD does not exist, there is no human construct, same as if He/She/It does exist. By definition, GOD has no definition apart from an eternally living entity, presumed intelligent beyond human capability at definition.
You have defined the object of your belief (i.e. GOD) as that which is NOT a human construct.Yet you also start many of your arguments with the faux-reasonable IF GOD exists.. But if GOD is neither a human construct nor something that existswhat is it? Straggler writes: One will suffice, in my belief.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: gods, I suppose. And I too tend to use jars description, though perhaps differently than he does. GOD, by definition of the word, is indeed beyond description or definition. The word merely gathers all that power and wisdom and whatever else into a term.
If there is only one God, what does a name distinguish Him from?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Where are you getting 50/50 from? GOD either exists or does NOT exist. Where are you getting "likely" from?
A supernatural intelligent creator IS a definition. Yes, but that is about as far as we can go. though some Christians extrapolate the character of Jesus as well as OT writings at trying to conceptualize GOD. My belief is that GOD is beyond definition or conceptualization...understanding is a better word.
Of course there is a human construct!! How can anyone claim to believe in something if they have absolutely no conception of what it is they believe in? Are you suggesting that an idea without evidence or concept is absurd? Logical, perhaps...but why do you have problems believing in a power greater than the capability of the human mind to define?
The very idea of a conceptless concept is absurd!!!!!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: As a Christian, do you think its naive of me to believe that GOD cares about me and/or you and Onifre and straggler and all of we humans any more than He cares about pond scum, or biological lifeforms, or life on Mars?
Humans are limited simply because we are human and part of this natural world and so for us to talk about and discuss something our descriptions and definitions are based on this natural world.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Onifre writes: When it comes to subjective beliefs, there is no absolute right or wrong involved. The criteria is not 100% empirical.
It's not that it's wrong, it's that you're not really saying anything that can be right or wrong. It's just a mess of words with no direction or real point.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler,to jar writes: Why not? IIRC, He only asserts possible existence, anyway. You can’t legitimately just define the object of your belief into existence jar. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler,addressing jar writes: This is the essence of being a believer. It is also why you are not one, seeing as how you find yourself unable to do such a thing.
How can you believe in the existence of something without having any idea what it is? And is there any reason at all to give this GOD concept any more merit, consideration or credence than any other "unknowable" entity I can conceive of or is your reason for doing so entirely personal irrational belief? Jar answered you. jar writes:
What you don't seem to get is that the difference between GOD, if GOD exists and all of the others is that the others have a cultural identity. As does the Christian God, as does Jesus, Allah, etc etc etc. the very definition of GOD, if GOD exists is exactly that. I Am that I AM. And again, I have answered your question many times. Yes, my belief in GOD is unreasonable, illogical and irrational. I've never said otherwise. Now...I DO see where you would label that GOD as the same as all the rest. Which is why by definition you are not a believer. You simply do not acknowledge the belief.
How can you believe in the existence of something without having any idea what it is? this is where the IF comes in. You won't even allow yourself to entertain the idea of an IF without the assurance of evidence or substance or reason. Absence of Belief obviously negates the belief of anything. There is no logical "winner" in any debate between a believer and an unbeliever. Logic cannot trump belief, nor can belief trump logic. It is a classic stalemate. Edited by Phat, : sub title
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
and what would your nuance be? do we agree to disagree, or do we disagree to disagree?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Yes, my belief in GOD is unreasonable, illogical and irrational.
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