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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 675 (637828)
10-18-2011 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
10-18-2011 8:52 AM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:
The question is "Is a God that has complete foreknowledge and is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that send some people to hell evil?"
Keyword: Send.
If Hell exists and is an option of the directions that a person will go in life, does the person send themselves to Hell (or to any of the other optional destinations) or does God send them by virtue of having created the mind that is the instrument of decision?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 8:52 AM jar has replied

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 Message 237 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 9:00 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 675 (637830)
10-18-2011 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by jar
10-18-2011 8:55 AM


Re: Back to basics.
jar writes:
If I know before hand exactly which turns the machine will make then it is still without freewill. The machine might think it has freewill but the print out shows it did not.
Before commenting, lets think if this analogy of a human designer of a machine is analogous to God (Creator of all seen and unseen) and a human.
As for the example of a human designing a machine, the human, by programming the machine, has given it all that it can possibly do. All that the machines computer c an do is to calculate probabilities, variables, and outcomes and arrive at an answer. There is no empathy or morality (yet) in a computer program.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 675 (637834)
10-18-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
10-18-2011 9:00 AM


Re: What God does.
jar writes:
If the God has foreknowledge then that God knows even before that critter is created that that critter will go to hell.
Keyword: foreknowledge. One definition that I found was this:
quote:
Awareness of something before it happens or exists.
Computers are not human minds. What is the difference between what a computer does and what a human mind is capable of doing? One answer that jumps out at me is this: The ability to think independently of a program.

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 Message 237 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 9:00 AM jar has replied

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 Message 241 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 9:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 675 (637840)
10-18-2011 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
10-18-2011 9:20 AM


Re: What God does.
jar writes:
The discussion is about what God does, not what the human does.
So are we questioning the motives of the teacher/programmer/creator?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 675 (637845)
10-18-2011 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Chuck77
10-16-2011 2:14 AM


Re: What Christians are best at
Chuck77 writes:
Christians don't go around saying we are allowed to judge God like Jar did.
This idea used to bother me. How, I wondered, would it even be proper...not to mention possible to question and/or challenge God?
Then I thought of an analogy of a martial arts teacher and his student. The teacher has the motivation of always challenging his student to become better and better. Does the student have a right to challenge the teacher? My answer was that if the student ever expects to learn anything he has to challenge someone better than he is, or he himself will never improve.
Just because God may set Himself up to be questioned or challenged in no way detracts from His position or ability. In my opinion, the motive would be for the edification and training of the human individual and/or race.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 245 of 675 (637847)
10-18-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Admin
10-18-2011 9:26 AM


Re: Jar and Phat
This topic is evolving, Percy. If I were required to summarize the entire discussion so far, I would label it as an evolving debate which clarifies or at least showcases my personal beliefs. I am one of the few who enjoys sparring with jar, though he can be anything but polite. I will say that I have advanced my beliefs since starting this thread over two years ago. I suspect, however, that we will end up with a Final Question long before we arrive at any Final Answer.
Add By Edit: For those of you who see jars debating style as brusque , it is probably the reason that Admin censored some of his words. I dont mind him challenging me intellectually and personally, however, so for me brusque is fair cricket.
Edited by Phat, : added comment

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 Message 243 by Admin, posted 10-18-2011 9:26 AM Admin has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 675 (637859)
10-18-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Admin
10-18-2011 10:33 AM


The Central Issue regarding Christian logic
Percy writes:
The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance.
Depends whether the position is based on Logic, Reason, and Reality or whether the position is based on a belief and a will to proselytize.
Edited by Phat, : changed subtitle

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 675 (637864)
10-18-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Straggler
10-18-2011 10:46 AM


What Constitutes Willful Ignorance?
Straggler writes:
But don't beliefs and and desire to proselytise essentially lead to the willful ignorance of that which contradicts?
Is the ignorance willful? Perhaps the believer is sincere and fervent.
There is no argument that a disagreement exists...as Buzsaw puts it, there is an alternative viewpoint.
I suppose the issue is what exactly constitutes willful ignorance as opposed to ignorance or sincere belief in an alternative explanation.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 675 (638734)
10-25-2011 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
10-18-2011 9:00 AM


Judging God
jar writes:
If the God has foreknowledge then that God knows even before that critter is created that that critter will go to hell.
Such a God is simply evil.
This kinda ties in with your belief that humans were given awareness of good and evil and a charge to do good. I can hardly imagine a scenario whereby my judging God would ever be considered a right move...but I look at God more as a standard of perfection and infinite wisdom rather than a teacher who expects me to challenge Her.
About the idea of willful ignorance....is it wrong to hold on to beliefs that seem logically crazy or irrational? For example, saying that God can do whatever God wants to do and that it is always a right move....

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 675 (675632)
10-13-2012 3:13 PM


Oh No! He isn't supposed to be like that!
It is a given that I prefer fantasy over reality, as do many. My question to you is this: If GOD exists (based on your framework of GOD, God, and god) Is it not quite possible that not very many humans would then like or worship such a Deity?
Edited by Phat, : added banner

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 257 of 675 (675634)
10-13-2012 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by jar
10-13-2012 4:35 PM


Re: Oh No! He isn't supposed to be like that!
just like at work I always tell myself that its good to attempt to have a relationship with or get along or at the very least understand the Boss.

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 Message 256 by jar, posted 10-13-2012 4:35 PM jar has replied

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 Message 258 by jar, posted 10-13-2012 5:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 675 (675643)
10-14-2012 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
10-13-2012 5:57 PM


Unknowable...Believe It Or Not
In any good debate, it is wise to attempt to see your opponents position. Why, in your opinion, do some people not allow themselves to believe something that they cannot define nor understand?
Edited by Phat, : fixed

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 261 of 675 (715581)
01-07-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
10-14-2012 9:57 AM


Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
jar writes:
As I said, the Map is not the Territory. When you buy a map you must always understand that it is just a representation and not reality. When you come to a bridge don't rely on the map; look and make sure it is really there.
Religion is taught properly is a map, a guide to how to live your life. Like maps, no religion is actually the territory, they are all just guides and so like maps, will have places where they are wrong, incomplete, not up to date, confusing.
That is true of any and all religions.
Christian teaching are about how to live this life, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless, heal the sick or injured. educate the ignorant, comfort the sorrowful. It's work, hard, often unpleasant work.
But not all Chapters of Club Christian teach that. Many teach the easy and pleasant, "Are you saved", "Not perfect, just saved", "Born Again" and the cop-out of cop-outs, Original Sin.
I agree that we are to be helpful to others as we live this life. I would argue, however, that a time of daily prayer and meditation is useful in order to commune with (what I believe to be) God as we know Him. I realize that you often use the ant analogy to proclaim the unlikelihood of such an interaction, and of course you are free to believe that. I believe that Christian teaching is not simply found in books, however. Christian teaching is alive and interactive....between humans and between God and humans.

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 Message 260 by jar, posted 10-14-2012 9:57 AM jar has replied

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 Message 262 by jar, posted 01-07-2014 2:18 PM Phat has replied
 Message 263 by nwr, posted 01-07-2014 5:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 675 (715670)
01-08-2014 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by nwr
01-07-2014 5:31 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
nwr writes:
What's to "believe in"? It is just a tradition and celebration.
Well...for starters...
quote:
John 4:24
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Communion is more than a ritual or a celebration. Communion actually involves God. At least that's my belief.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 675 (715673)
01-08-2014 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
01-07-2014 2:18 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
jar writes:
How can teaching be alive or interactive? What and when should we teach God?
Yet you refer to "the god character" as if God is something to be studied. This belief of yours always threw me for a loop...that we were expected to correct God and such. Arachnophilia said something though that made me see the origins of your belief...again.
arachnophilia,talking to Dawn Bertot writes:
remember, you have to understand that in judaism, the law is above god; it is a contract that binds both parties to their individual terms.
Thats why I asked you earlier though tongue-in-cheek whether or not you had a Jewish Mother!
I believe that GOD,if GOD exists can be known. There is no surefire way to test this so as to be easily explainable to others, but it is my firm belief that when I pray, I am talking to God. Whether or not He listens cannot be verified, though the action certainly brings peace of mind to me.
When you pray do you ask for things to be given to you are do you ask how you can do for others?
I do both--honestly--though your beliefs have helped me to see that God is more than simply a genie. My challenge is to get you to see that God is knowable and not just some character in a book to be discussed via logic, reason, and reality. My point is that human intelligence is limited---my belief is that Gods intelligence is not limited.
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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