|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,488 Year: 3,745/9,624 Month: 616/974 Week: 229/276 Day: 5/64 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Keyword: Send. The question is "Is a God that has complete foreknowledge and is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that send some people to hell evil?" If Hell exists and is an option of the directions that a person will go in life, does the person send themselves to Hell (or to any of the other optional destinations) or does God send them by virtue of having created the mind that is the instrument of decision?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Before commenting, lets think if this analogy of a human designer of a machine is analogous to God (Creator of all seen and unseen) and a human. If I know before hand exactly which turns the machine will make then it is still without freewill. The machine might think it has freewill but the print out shows it did not. As for the example of a human designing a machine, the human, by programming the machine, has given it all that it can possibly do. All that the machines computer c an do is to calculate probabilities, variables, and outcomes and arrive at an answer. There is no empathy or morality (yet) in a computer program.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: If the God has foreknowledge then that God knows even before that critter is created that that critter will go to hell. Keyword: foreknowledge. One definition that I found was this: quote: Computers are not human minds. What is the difference between what a computer does and what a human mind is capable of doing? One answer that jumps out at me is this: The ability to think independently of a program.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: So are we questioning the motives of the teacher/programmer/creator?
The discussion is about what God does, not what the human does.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Chuck77 writes: This idea used to bother me. How, I wondered, would it even be proper...not to mention possible to question and/or challenge God? Christians don't go around saying we are allowed to judge God like Jar did. Then I thought of an analogy of a martial arts teacher and his student. The teacher has the motivation of always challenging his student to become better and better. Does the student have a right to challenge the teacher? My answer was that if the student ever expects to learn anything he has to challenge someone better than he is, or he himself will never improve. Just because God may set Himself up to be questioned or challenged in no way detracts from His position or ability. In my opinion, the motive would be for the edification and training of the human individual and/or race.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
This topic is evolving, Percy. If I were required to summarize the entire discussion so far, I would label it as an evolving debate which clarifies or at least showcases my personal beliefs. I am one of the few who enjoys sparring with jar, though he can be anything but polite. I will say that I have advanced my beliefs since starting this thread over two years ago. I suspect, however, that we will end up with a Final Question long before we arrive at any Final Answer.
Add By Edit: For those of you who see jars debating style as brusque , it is probably the reason that Admin censored some of his words. I dont mind him challenging me intellectually and personally, however, so for me brusque is fair cricket. Edited by Phat, : added comment
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: Depends whether the position is based on Logic, Reason, and Reality or whether the position is based on a belief and a will to proselytize. The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance. Edited by Phat, : changed subtitle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Straggler writes: But don't beliefs and and desire to proselytise essentially lead to the willful ignorance of that which contradicts? Is the ignorance willful? Perhaps the believer is sincere and fervent. There is no argument that a disagreement exists...as Buzsaw puts it, there is an alternative viewpoint. I suppose the issue is what exactly constitutes willful ignorance as opposed to ignorance or sincere belief in an alternative explanation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: If the God has foreknowledge then that God knows even before that critter is created that that critter will go to hell. Such a God is simply evil. This kinda ties in with your belief that humans were given awareness of good and evil and a charge to do good. I can hardly imagine a scenario whereby my judging God would ever be considered a right move...but I look at God more as a standard of perfection and infinite wisdom rather than a teacher who expects me to challenge Her. About the idea of willful ignorance....is it wrong to hold on to beliefs that seem logically crazy or irrational? For example, saying that God can do whatever God wants to do and that it is always a right move....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It is a given that I prefer fantasy over reality, as do many. My question to you is this: If GOD exists (based on your framework of GOD, God, and god) Is it not quite possible that not very many humans would then like or worship such a Deity? Edited by Phat, : added banner
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
just like at work I always tell myself that its good to attempt to have a relationship with or get along or at the very least understand the Boss.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In any good debate, it is wise to attempt to see your opponents position. Why, in your opinion, do some people not allow themselves to believe something that they cannot define nor understand?
Edited by Phat, : fixed
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: As I said, the Map is not the Territory. When you buy a map you must always understand that it is just a representation and not reality. When you come to a bridge don't rely on the map; look and make sure it is really there.Religion is taught properly is a map, a guide to how to live your life. Like maps, no religion is actually the territory, they are all just guides and so like maps, will have places where they are wrong, incomplete, not up to date, confusing. That is true of any and all religions. Christian teaching are about how to live this life, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless, heal the sick or injured. educate the ignorant, comfort the sorrowful. It's work, hard, often unpleasant work. But not all Chapters of Club Christian teach that. Many teach the easy and pleasant, "Are you saved", "Not perfect, just saved", "Born Again" and the cop-out of cop-outs, Original Sin. I agree that we are to be helpful to others as we live this life. I would argue, however, that a time of daily prayer and meditation is useful in order to commune with (what I believe to be) God as we know Him. I realize that you often use the ant analogy to proclaim the unlikelihood of such an interaction, and of course you are free to believe that. I believe that Christian teaching is not simply found in books, however. Christian teaching is alive and interactive....between humans and between God and humans.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
nwr writes: What's to "believe in"? It is just a tradition and celebration. Well...for starters...quote:Communion is more than a ritual or a celebration. Communion actually involves God. At least that's my belief.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Yet you refer to "the god character" as if God is something to be studied. This belief of yours always threw me for a loop...that we were expected to correct God and such. Arachnophilia said something though that made me see the origins of your belief...again.
How can teaching be alive or interactive? What and when should we teach God? arachnophilia,talking to Dawn Bertot writes: Thats why I asked you earlier though tongue-in-cheek whether or not you had a Jewish Mother! remember, you have to understand that in judaism, the law is above god; it is a contract that binds both parties to their individual terms. I believe that GOD,if GOD exists can be known. There is no surefire way to test this so as to be easily explainable to others, but it is my firm belief that when I pray, I am talking to God. Whether or not He listens cannot be verified, though the action certainly brings peace of mind to me.
When you pray do you ask for things to be given to you are do you ask how you can do for others? I do both--honestly--though your beliefs have helped me to see that God is more than simply a genie. My challenge is to get you to see that God is knowable and not just some character in a book to be discussed via logic, reason, and reality. My point is that human intelligence is limited---my belief is that Gods intelligence is not limited. Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024