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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 214 of 318 (675547)
10-12-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
10-12-2012 10:29 AM


Re: HOLD THE PRESS
And again, I have answered your question many times.
Yes, my belief in GOD is unreasonable, illogical and irrational.
I've never said otherwise.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 10:29 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 11:09 AM jar has replied
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 10-12-2012 12:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 216 of 318 (675553)
10-12-2012 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Straggler
10-12-2012 11:09 AM


Re: HOLD THE PRESS
So when you make these fact-like proclamations such as "GOD is NOT a god" are you merely expressing an "unreasonable, illogical and irrational" belief?
No. While my believe in GOD is irrational, illogical and unreasonable my statement that GOD is not a God or god is reasoned and I have explained my reasoning.
When you say that Yahweh (or indeed any other god) is NOT a supernatural being are you merely expressing an "unreasonable, illogical and irrational" belief?
No, for the same reasons expressed above.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 11:09 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 11:53 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 318 (675559)
10-12-2012 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Straggler
10-12-2012 11:53 AM


Re: HOLD THE PRESS
You are of course free to believe that.
But as I pointed out above, it is only the belief that GOD does exist that I find unreasonable, illogical and irrational, the rest is reasoned I think.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 11:53 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 223 of 318 (675565)
10-12-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
10-12-2012 12:08 PM


Re: Rationality versus Irrationality
No, I don't see any way for a belief in GOD to be reasonable, rational or logical.
Yes, I think that atheism and agnosticism are more reasonable, rational and logical positions than belief in GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 10-12-2012 12:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 230 of 318 (675573)
10-12-2012 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Straggler
10-12-2012 12:30 PM


Re: HOLD THE PRESS
Again, in the very message you quote I pointed out that "But as I pointed out above, it is only the belief that GOD does exist that I find unreasonable, illogical and irrational, the rest is reasoned I think."
The nuance is a conclusion based on reason, logic and rationality.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 12:30 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2012 7:14 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 318 (675619)
10-13-2012 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Straggler
10-13-2012 7:14 AM


Re: HOLD THE PRESS
Again, quote mining seldom has value.
The full post that you quote mined was:
quote:
Again, in the very message you quote I pointed out that "But as I pointed out above, it is only the belief that GOD does exist that I find unreasonable, illogical and irrational, the rest is reasoned I think."
The nuance is a conclusion based on reason, logic and rationality.
First, you have been complaining that only I have been defining GOD, God and god as separate concepts so I really doubt that is what they all say and I doubt that even the majority of theists admit that their belief in GOD or God or god is illogical, unreasonable and irrational so I'm somewhat confused by you claiming that the quote above is what they all say.
But defining things is often difficult as the robotics folk have found. Even human have a hard time with many concepts, some simply can't be defined in words at all and so mathematics are used as a better approximation.
But in an attempt to help you understand I have provided definitions of the three terms I use, of GOD, God(s) and god(s) and I will repeat it yet again to see if it helps you.
The Nuance is one of detail, our definition of god(s) has the highest level of detail. For example the god found in the Genesis 2&3 stories is very human, makes mud figures, is sometimes unsure, sometimes fearful, works by trial and error but also very compassionate and approachable. The god found in Genesis 1 on the other hand is never unsure, creates by an act of will alone but apart from the creation, aloof and distant.
The next level, that of God(s) is less well defined, for example the Christian God could be said to be an amalgam of all the various god(s) found in the Old Testament with the addition of the attributes of the Jesus character and something referred to as the Holy Spirit.
But the actual thing, the GOD, if GOD exists is unlikely to be anything like any of the descriptions humans have invented. It is unlikely to be human centric or Christian centric or Buddhist centric or Hindu centric or like anything we really imagine. We are limited by being human, by being animals existing on this world in these societies and cultures. We create caricatures based on what we can experience.
As long as we are but human, I doubt we will be able to do a much better job of defining GOD beyond stating that GOD is most likely unlike any of the God(s) or god(s) we've defined.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2012 7:14 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 10-13-2012 2:50 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2012 8:46 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 245 of 318 (675726)
10-15-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Straggler
10-15-2012 8:46 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
You seem to spend a lot of time and effort trying to tell me what it is that I think or say.
There is a difference between something being meaningless and in my inability to describe or define it. My limitations are simply that, my limitations. My limitations though say absolutely nothing about the reality of the object being discussed.
I don't know what conceptual baggage you carry but that is irrelevant to my beliefs or position anyway.
And again, I have not insisted any knowledge of GOD can only come after death, rather I have consistently said that I see no way I can gain actual knowledge while I am still alive of anything supernatural.
I have repeatedly asked you and others about how something that was truly supernatural could be identified as truly supernatural.
Also, I have repeatedly said that I have no problem with you thinking my position is nonsense.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin left off "ly"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2012 8:46 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2012 2:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 247 of 318 (675777)
10-15-2012 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Straggler
10-15-2012 2:47 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
Can you tell us what definition you are using of the term "supernatural"...?
Can you explain how you know that this unknowable GOD is supernatural?
Can you explain why something (e.g Voldermort, demons, Thor etc.) cannot be both fictional/non-existent and defined as supernatural?
I have repeatedly said that anything can be asserted to be supernatural but that I do not see anyway to actually determine if something is supernatural.
Many have considered sleep (i.e. dreams) or waking trances as methods of interracting with the supernatural. Can you explain why you think death is any more or less likely to provide such knowledge than dreams or waking visions or whatever?
Many have claimed they know ways of interacting with the supernatural.
They are welcome to make such claims.
I have never said that death is more or less likely to provide knowledge, what I have said and will repeat for you yet again is that at least as long as I am alive I see no way that I could determine that something actually was supernatural.
Nor have I said that my terminology is free of cultural baggage, I simply have not speculated on what cultural baggage you carry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2012 2:47 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2012 8:42 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 249 of 318 (675814)
10-16-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Straggler
10-16-2012 8:42 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
The issue is whether or not I could actually identify something supernatural. I do not see anyway to define, test or identify something that is supernatural.
You give the definitions:
quote:
1.
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2.of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
and I have said that folk can assert such things but I also believe those definitions tell us nothing about the supernatural object; only about the human perception.
Those definitions simply describe what I have been calling God(s) or god(s). Those definitions don't describe the supernatural object, only the limited understanding of humans.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2012 8:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2012 12:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 318 (675838)
10-16-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Straggler
10-16-2012 12:58 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
I'll try yet again.
I don't know GOD is supernatural and I don't know any way I could actually test something to determine if it was supernatural.
We can test some things and determine they are NOT supernatural. For example, Voldemort is a character in a fiction story.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2012 12:58 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2012 1:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 253 of 318 (675844)
10-16-2012 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Straggler
10-16-2012 1:31 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
And I have answered which definition I am using many times but I will try yet again.
As I said most recently in Message 249:
jar writes:
The issue is whether or not I could actually identify something supernatural. I do not see anyway to define, test or identify something that is supernatural.
You give the definitions:
quote:
1.
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2.of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
and I have said that folk can assert such things but I also believe those definitions tell us nothing about the supernatural object; only about the human perception.
Those definitions simply describe what I have been calling God(s) or god(s). Those definitions don't describe the supernatural object, only the limited understanding of humans.
Humans like to label things and all those definitions tell us is that humans labeled something as "supernatural"; it tells us nothing about what supernatural really is.
As long as I am just a human, I don't see anyway to define, test or determine if something really is supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2012 1:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 10-16-2012 2:13 PM jar has replied
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 8:10 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 256 of 318 (675849)
10-16-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
10-16-2012 2:13 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
I think I understand it but also disagree totally with your assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 10-16-2012 2:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Phat, posted 10-16-2012 2:30 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 318 (675999)
10-18-2012 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Straggler
10-18-2012 8:10 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
You are getting closer, maybe almost there.
As I have said in the past and will gladly repeat yet again, I am human and live in this universe and can experience those natural things that exist within this universe.
The supernatural, if it exists, would be something other than natural.
But since I am human and I do live in the natural world, I see no way to identify anything that really was supernatural. About the best I could do is say "I see no natural way to explain that."
I am a theist, a Christian Theist. I worship the Christian God even though I understand it is not GOD but rather the best caricature, the best model, the best map I can find to be the guide for my ethical and social behavior.
You are kinda correct when you say "When you assert that 'GOD is supernatural' you have absolutely no idea at all what you mean do you?"
I don't and I have said that repeatedly. Both GOD and anything that is really supernatural will be something other than natural and as a human living in what we call the natural world, I really don't know what anything supernatural would be.
And that is the point of the nuance between GOD, God(s) and god(s).

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 8:10 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:17 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 318 (676001)
10-18-2012 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Straggler
10-18-2012 10:17 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
Again, let me repeat.
GOD, if GOD exists will be supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:17 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:25 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 318 (676005)
10-18-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Straggler
10-18-2012 10:25 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
And I've answered that before but I'm willing to try again.
I do not KNOW that, I believe that.
Since I know no way that I could ever test, determine or define something that really is supernatural as long as I am simply a human living in the natural world, I see no way to ever know anything about the supernatural as long as I am simply a human living in the natural world.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 10:25 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 11:29 AM jar has replied

  
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