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Author Topic:   A Proposed Proof That The Origin of The Universe Cannot Be Scientifically Explained
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 17 of 220 (674105)
09-26-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
09-26-2012 3:14 PM


Re: Always?
Well, it's what giving an explanation means. If we do something else, we're not doing that.
I disagree. I think the OP's logic is faulty.
There are descriptions of the origin of the universe that do not require a cause. For example if the origin of the universe were to be from a pre-existing, non-universe thingy that randomly produced the universe, then we might explain the creation of the universe from the thingy, without knowing how the thingy appeared.
As a second example, if the creation of the universe involved the creation of time itself, there would again be no necessity for a cause, particularly if a cause is required to be prior in time to the effect.
I think one huge hole in the OPs logic is that the statement that science is about cause and effect does not support the equivocation he follows in reaching his conclusion. Science is NOT necessarily about FIRST causes. The study of planetary orbits is scientific even without knowing the origins of gravity. We might talk about the origin of the sun without knowing how hydrogen became non-homogeneously distributed in the early universe.
I could imagine another origin of this universe as one cycle of a big-bang, big crunch cycle. We could easily study the origin and development of this universe without having any clue as to how and why the cycle of bang-crunch ever started.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-26-2012 3:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-26-2012 4:17 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 220 (674344)
09-27-2012 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
09-27-2012 9:32 PM


scientific processes were used to discover effects that have no cause.
I think there are some semantic problems with your sentence. Isn't an effect, by definition, the result of a cause. Maybe some word like 'event' would be a better choice than 'effect'.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 9:32 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 10:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 220 (674349)
09-28-2012 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Percy
09-27-2012 10:24 PM


Mine is a common usage within physics. The Doppler effect has a cause, the Casimir effect does not (or ultimately, the virtual particles that are responsible for the effect have no cause).
I am not complaining about any of the above. For example, I have no usage problem with your statement that the Casimir effect is caused by virtual particles.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Spelling of 'casimir'

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 09-27-2012 10:24 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 220 (674475)
09-29-2012 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by nano
09-29-2012 6:59 AM


Take a blank sheet of paper and draw a circle on it. Now begin to populate the circle with a single data point. Label it anything you want. Then put a second data point in the circle and label it anything you want.
Now, consider if there is any other way to populate the circle with data points.
The initial circle is an empty set, contains nothing and represents "the universe". The first data point is a "first thing" and by definition has no cause. The second data point is called "second" because of the first data point. It is contingent upon the "first thing". The only other way to obtain a populated set is to find it already populated.
The 'cause' of the first data point was your drawing it inside the circle. The reason for it being first was your election not to draw any other data points before it. The order is 'contingent' on you.
But let's pretend that your set description does not have this silliness about it. In that case your argument would be a mere analogy for causation regarding the origin of the universe. That is, the causation for applying the labels "first" and "second" is supposed to somehow apply to first causes in the creation of the universe. The next step would be to show us that your analogy reasonable extends to the subject of origins.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nano, posted 09-29-2012 6:59 AM nano has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 220 (674628)
10-01-2012 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by nano
10-01-2012 7:49 AM


Would they characterize the universe's underlying structure of quantum law as "governing" causal
Governing might be an appropriate word. 'Descriptive' might work just as well. The laws as you might read them in a text book describe how things in the universe work, and how the universe itself works.
But a description of the origin of the universe based on the laws of physics as we know or understand them IS an explanation. That description may or may not include an ultimate first cause. If in fact, the ultimate cause is God speaking, we can be assured that science won't uncover the cause.
Its also interesting because I think just about everyone here agrees that quantum fluctuations are responsible for the origin of the universe.
I'm not sure what the majority here think, but I don't think that and based on some previous discussions with EvC resident physicists, they don't seem overly enamored with that possibility either.
So, ultimately, did the laws "cause" the universe? Could they be considered a "first thing"?
Perhaps there is some physics, some metaphysics, and some theology in your questions. I think the laws are a "first thing", but are they the first, "first thing"?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by nano, posted 10-01-2012 7:49 AM nano has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 220 (675664)
10-14-2012 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2012 3:26 AM


Re: Explanations and more
But if it doesn't, then that leaves it rather hard to explain. There's a reason for the cause in because.
Alpha decay does not have a cause. But we have a detailed explanation for alpha decay. If a phenomenon does not have a cause, then its explanation simply does not include a description of causation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2012 3:26 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Dogmafood, posted 10-14-2012 11:23 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 137 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2012 1:32 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 220 (675695)
10-14-2012 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Dogmafood
10-14-2012 11:23 AM


Re: Explanations and more
So is this statement from these guys incorrect?
I wouldn't consider the explanation to be correct. It looks like an attempt to avoid confusing people with facts that they cannot understand. Excess repulsion? What's that? I would suggest that every nucleus has exactly the correct amount of repulsion. Alpha particles bouncing into the walls of the nucleus?? Really?? Walls?? Why don't alpha particles bounce into the walls of nuclei like Thorium 234 or Proactinium 234?
But let's ignore that particular sloppiness. Every single U238 nucleus has the same number of protons. So why did nucleus A of U238 decay 4.5 billion years ago, while identical nucleus B hasn't decayed yet.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Dogmafood, posted 10-14-2012 11:23 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Dogmafood, posted 10-15-2012 8:05 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 220 (675727)
10-15-2012 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dogmafood
10-15-2012 8:05 AM


Re: Explanations and more
I guess my answer would be that the 2 nuclei in question are not, in fact, identical. Or that the forces acting upon them are not identical. (abe; or that alpha particles are actually female)
We describe decay using quantum mech. using the assumption that all of the U238 nuclei are in fact identical. Alpha-decay is truly random and that there is no rhyme or reason why one atom decays and other does not. My point is that a scientific explanation of the phenomenon does not need to include a cause for a particular atom to decay and another to remain intact billions of years longer.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Dogmafood, posted 10-15-2012 8:05 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-16-2012 12:51 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 220 (675770)
10-15-2012 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2012 1:32 PM


Re: Explanations and more
Yes, I agree. We might then have a discussion about whether creating the non-zero probability constitutes a cause. But even if we decided it did not, the explanation would still be scientific.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2012 1:32 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 154 of 220 (675832)
10-16-2012 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Larni
10-16-2012 8:04 AM


Re: Explanations and more
So you are saying position affects decay rates.
He's also trying to claim that Pauli's exclusion principle applies to bosons (e.g. alpha particles and U238 nuclei). And all this time I was thinking the principle was applicable to fermions.
Alfred's participation in every group he has posted to recently is to claim that the entire discussion is meaningless because there is no real way to talk about the past. Therefore there is no origin for life, the universe, no reasonable way to talk about death or anything happening before anything else. All because some nuclei are separated by a few Angstroms or because Tom and Mary are separated by a few meters.
And what is his technique for convincing us? Well so far it seems to consists of being wrong about physics, giving concepts he does not like funny names, and mangling the posting handles in rib tickling ways. All this while referring to himself in the third person as a cat.
I think we all agree that participation in these discussion is not worth the time of someone who knows better. I don't intend to waste any more of AMs time.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Larni, posted 10-16-2012 8:04 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-17-2012 4:16 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 220 (675835)
10-16-2012 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Stile
10-16-2012 11:39 AM


Re: Example Specifics
1. A particle running into a "wall of particles (one particle-thick)" is kind of like a ping-pong ball being thrown at a wall of ping-pong balls if the wall of ping-pong balls had large spaces in between them representing the distance that particles are from each other due to all the forces that holds things together and keep things being "mostly empty space."
You cannot understand tunneling using this kind of analogy. Attempt to model particles as ping pong balls is likely to fail to describe quantum mechanical behavior, because it is the wave nature of matter that is being investigated. Passing through spaces in a wall is entirely the wrong way to look at things.
I would suggest looking at the wikipedia article on Quantum tunneling. Some of the articles that show up in a google search for the term may also be helpful.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 10-16-2012 11:39 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 10-16-2012 1:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 220 (675877)
10-16-2012 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Stile
10-16-2012 1:10 PM


Re: Example Specifics
So, in taking the "guy running into a brick wall and coming out the other side" example to the absurd lengths I'm talking about... what we would really end up with is a half-a-guy on the far side of the wall and the other half-a-guy bouncing back as normal. Because of conservation of energy.
Closer?
Much closer. But you aren't applying conservation the proper way. The amplitude "wave" in quantum theory is related to the probability of finding the particle in one location or the other rather than to the energy of a transmitted or reflected beam of light. A low transmission probability through the brick wall corresponds to a low probability of finding the particle on the other side rather than a 100% probability of finding a tiny part of the particle on the other side of the wall.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 10-16-2012 1:10 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 220 (675958)
10-17-2012 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Stile
10-17-2012 1:16 PM


Re: Example Specifics
I also seem to remember questions on tests specifying "a barrier 1 electron thick"... or something like that... which is why I stress on the thickness of the barrier. I forget the reasoning for it, though.
Your memory is likely correct on this point, but in addition to specifying the thickness of the barrier, most likely, the height of the barrier (expressed in energy units) was also specified.
Son Goku's explanation cleans up some of the sloppiness in my description, but it doesn't sound to me like you are all that far from reaching your own correct understanding.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 10-17-2012 1:16 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 220 (675997)
10-18-2012 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by New Cat's Eye
10-17-2012 12:04 PM


Re: Example Specifics
If you send a packet, I don't think its possible that most of the electrons will tunnel through. You'll only get a minority of them tunneling through, and the odds of the ones that do get through are given by that probability wave. I may be wrong.
The ratio between transmission and reflection depends on the energy of the electrons, and the thickness and height of the barrier. Even when the energy of the electron is less than the barrier height, there is a finite probability that the electron will be reflected by the barrier.
But it is possible for the probability of tunneling through the barrier to be greater than 50% even though classical physics would predict that the particle cannot penetrate the barrier. See figs. 9 and 10 at the following link.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/...g/qmech/lectures/node47.html

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-17-2012 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2012 10:40 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 179 of 220 (676146)
10-19-2012 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by New Cat's Eye
10-19-2012 10:40 AM


Re: Example Specifics
We know its not a really high energy and a really low thickness, because most of them don't make it through. And, given that animation, we'd never have most of them make it through. Correct?
Yes, that's correct. The animation is for electrons that have a low probability of being detected to the right of the barrier. And "really high" just means high compared to the energy of the electrons.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2012 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
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