Do We NEED God?

Well...if, as the story goes, Christ is "in" us, wouldn't communion be at least theoretically possible?

Technically you have a valid point. Let me ask you a hypothetical question, however. If a devout group of religious/spiritual/truth seekers were believing the idea that communion with a God or a higher (or even alian) power is possible, would it be beneficial to them to simply burst their bubble...or at least attempt to do so....if the result of their belief made them better people and was beneficial to humanity? Granted all kids outgrow Santa Claus, but some adults keep the belief going, if only to make Christmas seem more magical and benevolent. Some stories as mythos are best left alone by logic and critical thinking.My point is that there can be a purpose for a belief, even if it can logically never be proven.

We would listen to our conscience and act on what we knew to be the best to do. We would do what is right and not merely what we wanted. We would sacrifice in many cases for the benefit of others. We would let wisdom prevail. Some say this would entirely be our decision and our mind. Others would believe that we were in communion with the Spirit of God.Since this Spirit can't be detected by any scientific means, I suppose that theoretically it would be entirely our decision and our responsibility regardless of our beliefs.

I suppose that it depends on whether this communion is initiated and/or maintained by our own effort or through Gods grace.The bible says differing things, depending on the translation. Galatians 5:16:Symbolically or literally are we through our own efforts walking/doing the right vibe or are we letting the right vibe personified(God) guide our lives?

Not exactly. I think that when we act contrarily to our altruistic nature we allow demons legal right to reinforce our negative behavior. It is still initially our responsibility.

Good question. I think that a good indicator which you may or may not be able to perceive internally, yourself, is when you are observed to be unable to control yourself. In other words, not only are you eating yourself to death, you are incapable of stopping even though all logic suggests that you should. Its interesting how you say that--for the sake of argument---you would want to experience that which you don't believe exists. ts the same with your GOD argument with jar. You seem bemused to believe that a GOD could exist without your acknowledgement...which I suppose is true from your subjective awareness. GOD very well could exist even though you never chose to believe such a thing. So could demons. In the case of demons, however, I give them much less respect. So should you.

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Please take the following to heart, Phat.

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If "god" exists, then I want to believe that "god" exists.

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If "god" does NOT exist, then I want to not believe that "god" exists.

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You want your beliefs to match objective reality as closely as possible.
My beliefs are in the very essence of what forms objective reality. Hint: It is not formed through human wisdom, though it is often discovered that way. I will agree, except that I don't accept your conclusion that god never existed in the first place. Granted you may or may not be right.Edited by Phat, : addedEdited by Phat, : No reason given.

You would make me think! And yes, I do often string together word salad, but im attempting to mix it up and make it tasty, eventually! And I am attempting to convey deep meaning, since my personal bias leans toward GOD as being a deep topic, rather than simply a whimsical debate.Lets start with this premise: What Is Objective Reality*Phat reads the source he is quoting*.....Does anyone have a definition of objective reality that they would like to propose? What I meant was that my continual search for knowledge and definition does not mean that I personally do not believe in GOD as a final definitive objective reality, but I say that it is only a belief. I try not to search for knowledge simply as a confirmation of my bias, I search so as to be better able to
attempt to define what it is that I believe, why it is that I believe it, and what, if anything, I am purposefully ignoring.Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

We have three "God" topics in high rotation, chiefly because I like talking about such things. I have to discipline myself, however, and sort the data as to which topic should be addressed by what specific criteria.This Topic is in Faith & Belief. Indeed they do. Sometimes I dont think enough before I say something, and it comes out wrong. For me, or for everyone? *ponders* Yes, I suppose that since I believe that God is good and is personally interactive and/or interested in our lives that it is good to believe in Him. Not true. I DO believe that GOD exists whether or not anyone believes in Him. Jar has pointed out, however, that my definition of GOD tends to favor me and loves humanity, whereas the reality may be different. So I am forced to admit that if GOD exists, I may not know Her all that well! How appropiate on the eve of the second presidential debate! I have an idea of what I think a Democracy should do and be, and I tie that in with what a candidate or party ideology/affiliation says, though their words often betray them as well. We know that what is said is not often done...or is partially quoted, misquoted, or taken out of context. In the same way, what you say is true in that I tend to align myself and form my own bias based on the God that I want to exist, which may not be the One whom actually does.(In this universe, anyway...maybe not in that other one! Based on jars analogy, its all in the capitalization. My belief in GOD is independent of how I attempt to define God, which is a mix of logic and emotion and personal bias. As to my alliance, I do not limit my affiliation with believers. I find that aligning with non-believers and skeptics as well as intelligent critical thinkers of unknown belief actually challenges me much better. Believers, if they are defined as I think you mean, tend not to think and are mired in dogma and ideology. They may be as a group less desirable to be in alliance with, though individually as heartfelt and wise as are the other group. Edited by Phat, : changed subtitle

I don't describe God as I know Him on this forum. People would either think me delusional or "talking to an invisible man" of my own creation. I DO talk with Him on a regular daily basis, however, and I only say things to you like:

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I DO believe that GOD exists whether or not anyone believes in Him.

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so that you understand it the way our discussions revolve. Essentially I "dumb down" God as I know Him for the benefit of conversations at EvC. I challenge that assertion, though I am not sure exactly how. We all love to try and figure jar out---but I think that I see his viewpoint. I would say that he essentially says "I am a believer and I believe in logic, reason, and reality, which is all that God has given me.Or you." He would go on to say that GOD, if GOD exists, is unknowable while we are alive, but as to whether he attempts to communicate in some way with this belief, he won't get that personal here. We are, after all, an internet forum and do not know each other personally, except through our words. I, on the other hand, always talk to God, and believe that God listens, though I am not sure if talking with God is necessary for Him...only for me. I maintain that God can know us, but that we won't fully understand Him.However, I dumbed it down (or smarted it up ) to say to you . On a personal level, I have expectations for what I want God to do for me. Perhaps that is why He never directly audibly answers me in a way that everyone could hear. I do occasionally have audible dreams, however, and will often wake up with an answer to something that puzzled me before. Arguably the sub conscious, but I don't rule God out. He can impart to me however He wants. I call this sentence out. I maintain that I feel it. Feeling is knowing. Not so. I would say that your only prayer should be to know Him, if that is what He wants.Traditional dogma says so. I believe so. As for jar? He tells me that communicating with God is as hard to do as humans communicating with an ant. And I disagree with him. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I sit at my computer at 6:30 am two days after Christmas. As much as I "hate" the arguments at EvC...coming from a bunch of atheists,agnostics, and skeptics...I need the interaction with all of you. You are as important to me as is any church family....since you cause me to think and question.I still pray---my internal belief is in a knowable GOD through a living Jesus Christ---I will admit I couldn't handle reality any other way.Jesus is alive, but He does not seem to favor me...and I grew up as an entitled American who had to be favored. I wont go on....I guess in a way I am disillusioned and somewhat depressed. Things just are not going my way. This next year will be quite a challenge. My diabetes is getting worse. I need to earn (or acquire) enough money with which to retire within fifteen (or so) years...its not easy being older and weaker. So...in line with this topic...at this point in my life I need God. Further, I need God to help me. Perhaps He wants me to help others, but all I can do at this moment in this post on this forum is to be honest. Is it any wonder I still gamble? I need to be blessed...favored...fixed...helped. Sometimes I reread old forum posts with which to argue...but after finding your (Rahvin) exchange here....I questioned whether you may have had me figured out. Honestly, I think that I still believe in God and that I amm better off doing so...but I would quite honestly fear ever considering another way to believe. In lotteries, probability is against us. In life it seems that we die regardless.This next year I will be joining a group of young Christian leaders here in Denver and take a 12 month course. I will be open and honest with them...they probably never encountered an honest Christian who questions and doubts much before...though maybe they have. I will report here in a soon to be new topic about what we talk about.Im sorta puzzled with God lately. He has not given me what I ask for. Perhaps I can take solace that He knows what I need...but im still praying.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

You offer an interesting perspective and insight into my plight.I've personally never really thought of God as an addiction---though I can see where religion would be one.Perhaps the challenge is in maintaining a relationship (or time of meditation) with a Creator who is not simply a butler or a genie.In the wrong sense I could see how one could become addicted to the idea of entitlement towards blessing.I find myself praying a lot about what I need but not as much about what others need. Its not easy to think of others more so than I do myself...especially when I feel that I am entitled to some assistance.While I don't believe that "God helps those who help themselves" is a biblical statement....I do feel that God wants me to be fully equipped. jar would argue that I am fully responsible for this...while I still believe the notion that only God can help me attain transcendence. (Hence why everyone needs God.)Perhaps a question---would people even want to have a relationship with a Creator if they felt they didn't need anything??

so to you, truth is relative and not absolute. I understand.

Sounded honest so far. I did notice that you went out of your way to bring it up. We Christians always jump to attention whenever Jesus is mentioned, after all. Ringo mentions that foolish virgins look for Whom is already here. It just seems that you consider yourself to have replaced Jesus...am I right so far? I think that a lot of this revolves around who we believe Jesus to be...an upgrade to our own personalities or a connection to God Himself. And of course, believing in God would also assume that we need God.The only thing that scares me about what you believe has to do with the scripture that suggests that we who feel self sufficient are blind since we don't acknowledge our blindness..(our need.)Critics would, however, say that this type of teaching has human origins in that it forces people to need what the church provides.At any rate, I cannot help but respect your honesty.

what specifically are the two questions again?