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Author Topic:   NDE
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 121 of 130 (65777)
11-11-2003 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Wise
11-09-2003 5:35 PM


Wise writes:
quote:
They point to an AFTERLIFE.
No, they don't.
You're not dead. If you are still alive, you weren't strictly dead. Since biological processes continue for quite some time after such mundane things as your heart stopping, there is no evidence that what you experienced had any supernatural quality at all. It is more likely that you experienced a biological reaction.
You won't know what happens after you die until you die and never come back.
quote:
So NDE'S most CERTAINLY strike a dagger into the heart of atheism
Logical error: Assuming the consequent.
You're supposed to prove that the NDE actually contacts "the other side," not simply assume that there is another side to contact.
quote:
One case has a nurse who records *50* such NDE'S and all of them had out of body experiences that recollected nearly everything that took place in the operating room in which the individual were totally unconscious or clinacally dead.
So? The person was in the room. Unconscious does not mean biologically inactive. Your eardrums still vibrate from sonic waves whether you're conscious or not. That's why the alarm clock will wake you up when you're asleep.
What would be amazing is if the people who had the NDE were capable of telling us what was going on in a room they were not in. Rather than telling us what was happening in ER room 2, why not tell us what was going on in delivery room 4 three flights up?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Wise, posted 11-09-2003 5:35 PM Wise has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 122 of 130 (65779)
11-11-2003 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Wise
11-09-2003 6:25 PM


Wise responds to me:
quote:
quote:
What exactly about Maxwell's Equations do you misunderstand?
Yeaaahh...Riiigght.
Indeed.
I direct you to your local college or university. Go to the library and look at the copy of the introductory physics text. The most common ones are authored by Halliday and Resnick or by Sears, Zemansky, and Young. In any case, there will be a section on electromagnetism.
Read it.
Do the problems.
And if you're still confused, audit the class and listen to the lectures.
quote:
NOTHING charges particles?
Yes.
Electrons have charge by the nature of their very existence. It is not like you can uncharge an electron. You can't make an electron turn into a positron.
quote:
You MUST have attended Saint Atheist school of higher learning.
No, Harvey Mudd.
You know Harvey Mudd, right? The #1 college of science and engineering in the country?
quote:
SOMETHING is charging those particles
Says who? You? Why should we believe you over Maxwell? We can actually do work with Maxwell's equations, create experiments that test them, and verify their results.
quote:
and let us NOT FORGET that the brain EMITS an electromatic field of some sort
Of course.
There are charged particles in your brain. Just as Maxwell's equations describe, the electric field is generated by the charged particles.
What do you think the "E" in the equations represents?
quote:
which is the soul and spirit eminating energy and keeping the body alive.
So electrons have souls? What about protons? And since neutrons have no charge, do they not have souls?
And you need to work on your HTML skills. Your equation didn't come out.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Wise, posted 11-09-2003 6:25 PM Wise has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by helena, posted 11-11-2003 12:11 PM Rrhain has replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 123 of 130 (65822)
11-11-2003 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Rrhain
11-11-2003 8:20 AM


I would just like to make one or two remarks on your comments, Rrhain.
Stating Maxwell's equations isn't going to help your point a lot, as we indeed cannot fully say, how electric charge comes about from a very fundamental point of view. Maxwell's equations (mid 19th century IIRC) are indeed a very nice set of rules about how the electromagnetic field behaves (and that indeed the electric and magnetic forces have the same origin). But they do not explain the origin of its "players" (charge etc.)
Having said that, I must strongly disagree with the notion that if we do not (fully) understand something it must necessarily be caused by a god, a set of gods, or the great galactic goat..
There have been a lot of things, that were once thought to be caused by influences without the range of our perception (demons, fairies or indeed god). As knowledge progressed, we have learned about bacteria, viri etc. so that we do not need to invoke an outwordly power for the observed effects.
I'm absolutely confident that one day we will know the answers to these questions. We will probably then find ourselves faced with a couple of new ones, nobody thought of yet. As I'm also sure that some people will invoke a god (most likely the one Jews, Christians and Muslims worship) for the explanation of these questions.
regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Rrhain, posted 11-11-2003 8:20 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Rrhain, posted 11-11-2003 1:14 PM helena has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 124 of 130 (65835)
11-11-2003 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by helena
11-11-2003 12:11 PM


Alex responds to me:
quote:
Stating Maxwell's equations isn't going to help your point a lot, as we indeed cannot fully say, how electric charge comes about from a very fundamental point of view.
Why? The equations seem to work. So unless you're going to move the goalposts and say that we don't know where the fundamental constants involved in the equations come from or something similar, then they do, indeed, tell us where electric charge comes from.
quote:
But they do not explain the origin of its "players" (charge etc.)
Logical error: Moving the goalposts.
The question, then, is not about electricity but why the universe is the way it is...why there is even such a thing as electricity in the first place.
Now, that's a really interesting question.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by helena, posted 11-11-2003 12:11 PM helena has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by helena, posted 11-11-2003 3:31 PM Rrhain has replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 125 of 130 (65875)
11-11-2003 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Rrhain
11-11-2003 1:14 PM


quote:
Why? The equations seem to work. So unless you're going to move the goalposts and say that we don't know where the fundamental constants involved in the equations come from or something similar, then they do, indeed, tell us where electric charge comes from.
no contest to the first part - they do work..
and I think we might be arguing the same point but using different wording..
quote:
Logical error: Moving the goalposts.
The question, then, is not about electricity but why the universe is the way it is...why there is even such a thing as electricity in the first place.
Now, that's a really interesting question.
again, no contest here...
but, you will also have to agree, that the Maxwell equations are based on the following observations, if you will:
(a) sign-separated charges exist (they can have a non-neutral density rho)
(b) magnetic monopoles don't exist
(c) magnetic and electric field are connected with one another as stated.
so, what I am saying is that the basis for Maxwell's equation is the existence of charges.. or in other words: They are a phenomenological description of what experiments have told us about electromagnetics, nothing less - nothing more. Why they turn out to be exactly what they are is the interesting question.
regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Rrhain, posted 11-11-2003 1:14 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Rrhain, posted 11-12-2003 12:28 AM helena has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 126 of 130 (65954)
11-12-2003 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by helena
11-11-2003 3:31 PM


Alex responds to me:
quote:
(b) magnetic monopoles don't exist
Actually, if I recall what I have read correctly, string theory does allow monopoles. And interestingly enough, with enough monopoles of one type, you can create the opposite one.
Indeed, we haven't seen any, but that's something different (though a recent article in Science claims that there is indirect evidence for their existence, Z Fang et al. 2003 Science 302 92). And Dirac's work seems to allow for magnetic monopoles in quantum mechanics. One of the reasons for inflation theory was to explain the seeming absence of magnetic monopoles and all evidence seems to be pointing toward an inflationary period in the universe.
quote:
Why they turn out to be exactly what they are is the interesting question.
Indeed, but that wasn't the original question. If Wise wants to know why the universe is the way it is, then he should ask that question. We can explain the behaviours of electrons quite well. But as to why there are electrons to begin with is still unknown and a much more interesting question.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by helena, posted 11-11-2003 3:31 PM helena has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by helena, posted 11-12-2003 3:21 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 127 of 130 (65977)
11-12-2003 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Rrhain
11-12-2003 12:28 AM


quote:
Actually, if I recall what I have read correctly, string theory does allow monopoles. And interestingly enough, with enough monopoles of one type, you can create the opposite one.
Indeed, we haven't seen any, but that's something different (though a recent article in Science claims that there is indirect evidence for their existence, Z Fang et al. 2003 Science 302 92). And Dirac's work seems to allow for magnetic monopoles in quantum mechanics. One of the reasons for inflation theory was to explain the seeming absence of magnetic monopoles and all evidence seems to be pointing toward an inflationary period in the universe.
my point was just, that Maxwell's equations do not allow for them (otherwise divB /= 0).
best regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Rrhain, posted 11-12-2003 12:28 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Wise
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 130 (67589)
11-18-2003 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by nator
11-10-2003 9:00 AM


No, it is not "well-known".
It is practiced in some religions and is a folk remedy for certain ailments, but is not particularly supported by science.
You don't know what you are talkimg about
Fasting has been practiced since thw dawn of man and has been known to be very helpful physically in a variety of ways.
RESEARCH is JUST NOW beginning to discover its benefits INCLUDING an "INCREASED LIFESPAN"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-04-28-fasting_x.htm
No, it doesn't.
The liver does that and fasting only hinders this activity.
Again, you are B-L-I-N-D.
Fasting DOES INDEED rid the body of toxins but it may be best to be on a Juice or vegatable fast instead of an all water fast depending on ones health.
If you ook at ones tongue after about 3 days of a fast it begins to eliminate toxins. One can actually scrape the tongue and have the residue examined.
One individual had DDT on his tongue.
Page not found - Moondragon
The most drastic way to reduce caloric intake is to stop eating completely. After a few days, body fats and proteins are metabolized to produce energy. The fats are broken down into fatty acids that can be used as fuel. In the absence of adequate carbohydrate, the fatty acids may be incompletely metabolized, yielding ketone bodies and thus ketosis. Prolonged fasting is unsafe, because it causes the body to begin to digest proteins from its muscles, heart, and other internal organs.
Weight loss?
Of course there is weight loss. But during the process the body is eliminating deadly toxins.
Keep in mind that a long fast may NOT be good for SOME people but short fasts are ALWAYS beneficial to some point.
Fasts are not beneficial.
Fasts force the body to break down muscle and organ tissue in order to survive.
AND they RID the body of TOXINS thus EXTENDING LIFE.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In many cases it can bring deadly cancers under control.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please provide scientific evidence to support your claim.
I KNOW someone who it HAPPENED to with the lung.
I ALSO know someone who ELIMINATED some cancer.
It IS PROVEN.
ATHEISTS are WAY BEHIND in science when it comes to fasting. WAY WAY BEHIND.
Wise

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by nator, posted 11-10-2003 9:00 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Rei, posted 11-18-2003 10:09 PM Wise has not replied
 Message 130 by Asgara, posted 11-18-2003 11:51 PM Wise has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 129 of 130 (67592)
11-18-2003 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Wise
11-18-2003 10:04 PM


quote:
ATHEISTS are WAY BEHIND in science when it comes to fasting. WAY WAY BEHIND.
Yeah... he's right, you know. We should go back to working on nonscientific tasks like developing a unified field theory.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Wise, posted 11-18-2003 10:04 PM Wise has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 130 of 130 (67605)
11-18-2003 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Wise
11-18-2003 10:04 PM


I KNOW someone who it HAPPENED to with the lung.
I ALSO know someone who ELIMINATED some cancer.
It IS PROVEN.
THAT IS AMAZING, Wise. Can you give us the references to the medical journals that documented these miracles??
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Wise, posted 11-18-2003 10:04 PM Wise has not replied

  
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