|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
What I asked for is an example, and it can be one you invent, of an astray epigenetic change that you believe nature would not allow. I want you to tell me how nature would prevent such a change.
I really i don't follow you. I never said "of an astray epigenetic change that nature would not allow." What i am saying is: Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray ( eg to get useless. An example: elongated girrafes neck, being first an epigenetic change, paved the way of deep genome mutations that increased number of spondyls etc.
You say that epigenetic changes are developed through natural selection, but then you deny that such changes can ever be detrimental without specifying what the environment is.
No. Epigenetic changes are developed by environmental factors. Natural selection chooses the best of them.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
I have an analogy may explain what I think Zi Ko is saying.
Mutation is going to shoot an arrow, but it can't see where the target is. Nature, however, has a way to call out to mutation to say "aim this way", so that the arrow will be shot in the general direction of the target. But mutation still fires in a relatively random direction because it cannot actually see the target. Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target. The big thing is that nature is almost a being in and of itself and is directing all natural processes, so what looks random really isn't, but guided by some supernatural force (nature itself). If anything survives and thrives then that is considered evidence that the process is guided. If anything dies or goes extinct, that is also evidence that nature had deemed it necessary to ensure survival of other life. Zi Ko's philosophy seems very Eastern in nature and very difficult for us with a more Western philosophy to get a handle on. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray And I'm asking you how nature would prevent this thing it would not allow. What is the process by which economics are taken into account? In short, (and again) stop treating nature as a person or deity and tell me how this thing you say happens would or could work. What would prevent an elongated giraffes neck from becoming a useless or even a detrimental change?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target. If this is what Zi ko means, I hope he will acknowledge it. I don't find the concepts particularly difficult, but I don't see much science in them. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
but I don't see much science in them. I think one would need to approach his kind of view with a "our senses are being deceived" type philosophy rather than a "reality only exists in what we can perceive with our senses." philosophy. Like I said, it doesn't fit real well with our more Western thinking. Of course, it is not really possible to prove that our senses are not being deceived, it is just something we have come to accept - that we can trust our senses to construct reality. Zi Co apparently hasn't come to that conclusion yet. (and I truly don't mean that as an insult, I simply mean that Zi Co seems to have a different way of constructing reality than we do) And no, its not much of a scientific concept, but more a philosophical concept. Where a creationist would be explaining these concepts with God or an unnamed supernatural being, Zi Ko seems to give that recognition to "nature" itself. Read a little about the Gaia Hypothesis for a more concise version of his POV. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Randomness here is an unfortunate term to describe the real thing. No, it is the accurate term to describe the relationship between mutagenesis and fitness. It perfectly describes the disconnect between how variation is produced and the variation that the organism needs. If I am holding a lottery ticket with a specific set of numbers did the act of printing off those numbers increase the chances that those ping pong balls will show up in the results? NO!!! It is the same for mutations.
The crucial factor here is the permanent existance of the environment factor that changes dynamically and constantly the numbers on the dices.. Are they permanent or dynamic? You need to choose one. Also, how does the environment make mutations non-random with respect to fitness.
We have either to exclude it once and for all, by hard evidence against it, or accept its possibility to play a significant role in evolution. Perhaps you could describe and experiment or specific potential evidence that would rule it out. What evidence would you have to see in order to admit that mutations are not guided.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
the evidence brought here up to now were about one cell organism, which i accepted, not for metazoa.
Then please show how the process of mutagenesis is different in metazoans and how that results in non-random mutations.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
What i am saying is: Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray ( eg to get useless You are obviously wrong since I have pointed to two examples of epigenetic changes that are not only useless but detrimental.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
You are obviously wrong since I have pointed to two examples of epigenetic changes that are not only useless but detrimental.
Are yo referring to message 84? You then were talking about detrimental mutations. Epigenetic changes after being selected by natural selection could not be detrimental.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Then please show how the process of mutagenesis is different in metazoans and how that results in non-random mutations.
As i said there is not still such evidence,. for the same reason that evidence of random mutations in metazoa is missing.Perhaps you as well should feel obliged, in spite of blindly believing in random mutatations,to show that the processes of evolution in one cell organisms and metazoa are not different, instead of applying with so much easiness the same conclusions to different things and situations, which is totally unscientific --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
What evidence would you have to see in order to admit that mutations are not guided.
Not more than you, after 150 ys of Darwinism have you managed to bring here to support random mutations in metazoa.
Are they permanent or dynamic? You need to choose one. They are both.
Also, how does the environment make mutations non-random with respect to fitness. . By using epigenetic changes to guide mutations to specific direction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an analogy may explain what I think Zi Ko is saying. No. i am misundestood.Environment is Affecting organisms (metazoa) epigenetically. Long after , maybe thousand of ys, the eigenetic change, as environment contnues to press on the same direction, prepares the field and shows about the direction of the useful mutations to happen.Mutation is going to shoot an arrow, but it can't see where the target is. Nature, however, has a way to call out to mutation to say "aim this way", so that the arrow will be shot in the general direction of the target. But mutation still fires in a relatively random direction because it cannot actually see the target. Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target. The big thing is that nature is almost a being in and of itself and is directing all natural processes, so what looks random really isn't, but guided by some supernatural force (nature itself). If anything survives and thrives then that is considered evidence that the process is guided. If anything dies or goes extinct, that is also evidence that nature had deemed it necessary to ensure survival of other life. Zi Ko's philosophy seems very Eastern in nature and very difficult for us with a more Western philosophy to get a handle on. HBD
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
And I'm asking you how nature would prevent this thing it would not allow. What is the process by which economics are taken into account?
Nature does not prevent anything. What does not allow, and it is not economially sensible to happen, is the up to then epigenetic processes and changes to be usless.Nature use them to show about the direction to next mutations. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
In short, (and again) stop treating nature as a person or deity and tell me how this thing you say happens would or could work. What would prevent an elongated giraffes neck from becoming a useless or even a detrimental change? I don't treat nature as aa person or deity. I only treat environmental information as it is deserved to be treated and in line of my belief that the Univerce is made by substance and information communicating between substance. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
|
At least as relevant to this topic as what you're posting, and much more readable:
A Man Said to the Universe Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024