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Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 106 of 264 (676100)
10-19-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 9:06 AM


Re: Please explain
What I asked for is an example, and it can be one you invent, of an astray epigenetic change that you believe nature would not allow. I want you to tell me how nature would prevent such a change.
I really i don't follow you. I never said "of an astray epigenetic change that nature would not allow." What i am saying is: Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray ( eg to get useless. An example: elongated girrafes neck, being first an epigenetic change, paved the way of deep genome mutations that increased number of spondyls etc.
You say that epigenetic changes are developed through natural selection, but then you deny that such changes can ever be detrimental without specifying what the environment is.
No. Epigenetic changes are developed by environmental factors. Natural selection chooses the best of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 9:06 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 9:59 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 10-19-2012 11:02 AM zi ko has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 107 of 264 (676101)
10-19-2012 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 9:06 AM


Re: Please explain
I have an analogy may explain what I think Zi Ko is saying.
Mutation is going to shoot an arrow, but it can't see where the target is. Nature, however, has a way to call out to mutation to say "aim this way", so that the arrow will be shot in the general direction of the target. But mutation still fires in a relatively random direction because it cannot actually see the target. Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target.
The big thing is that nature is almost a being in and of itself and is directing all natural processes, so what looks random really isn't, but guided by some supernatural force (nature itself). If anything survives and thrives then that is considered evidence that the process is guided. If anything dies or goes extinct, that is also evidence that nature had deemed it necessary to ensure survival of other life.
Zi Ko's philosophy seems very Eastern in nature and very difficult for us with a more Western philosophy to get a handle on.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 9:06 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 10:02 AM herebedragons has replied
 Message 117 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 10:46 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 264 (676103)
10-19-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by zi ko
10-19-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Please explain
Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray
And I'm asking you how nature would prevent this thing it would not allow. What is the process by which economics are taken into account?
In short, (and again) stop treating nature as a person or deity and tell me how this thing you say happens would or could work. What would prevent an elongated giraffes neck from becoming a useless or even a detrimental change?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:47 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 10:57 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 119 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 11:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 264 (676104)
10-19-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by herebedragons
10-19-2012 9:48 AM


Re: Please explain
Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target.
If this is what Zi ko means, I hope he will acknowledge it. I don't find the concepts particularly difficult, but I don't see much science in them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by herebedragons, posted 10-19-2012 9:48 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by herebedragons, posted 10-19-2012 10:34 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 110 of 264 (676107)
10-19-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 10:02 AM


Re: Please explain
but I don't see much science in them.
I think one would need to approach his kind of view with a "our senses are being deceived" type philosophy rather than a "reality only exists in what we can perceive with our senses." philosophy. Like I said, it doesn't fit real well with our more Western thinking. Of course, it is not really possible to prove that our senses are not being deceived, it is just something we have come to accept - that we can trust our senses to construct reality. Zi Co apparently hasn't come to that conclusion yet. (and I truly don't mean that as an insult, I simply mean that Zi Co seems to have a different way of constructing reality than we do)
And no, its not much of a scientific concept, but more a philosophical concept. Where a creationist would be explaining these concepts with God or an unnamed supernatural being, Zi Ko seems to give that recognition to "nature" itself. Read a little about the Gaia Hypothesis for a more concise version of his POV.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 10:02 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 111 of 264 (676111)
10-19-2012 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by zi ko
10-19-2012 12:49 AM


Randomness here is an unfortunate term to describe the real thing.
No, it is the accurate term to describe the relationship between mutagenesis and fitness. It perfectly describes the disconnect between how variation is produced and the variation that the organism needs. If I am holding a lottery ticket with a specific set of numbers did the act of printing off those numbers increase the chances that those ping pong balls will show up in the results? NO!!! It is the same for mutations.
The crucial factor here is the permanent existance of the environment factor that changes dynamically and constantly the numbers on the dices..
Are they permanent or dynamic? You need to choose one.
Also, how does the environment make mutations non-random with respect to fitness.
We have either to exclude it once and for all, by hard evidence against it, or accept its possibility to play a significant role in evolution.
Perhaps you could describe and experiment or specific potential evidence that would rule it out. What evidence would you have to see in order to admit that mutations are not guided.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 12:49 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 10:17 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 112 of 264 (676112)
10-19-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by zi ko
10-19-2012 9:21 AM


the evidence brought here up to now were about one cell organism, which i accepted, not for metazoa.
Then please show how the process of mutagenesis is different in metazoans and how that results in non-random mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:21 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 113 of 264 (676113)
10-19-2012 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by zi ko
10-19-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Please explain
What i am saying is: Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray ( eg to get useless
You are obviously wrong since I have pointed to two examples of epigenetic changes that are not only useless but detrimental.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:47 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:38 PM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 114 of 264 (676148)
10-19-2012 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Taq
10-19-2012 11:02 AM


Re: Please explain
You are obviously wrong since I have pointed to two examples of epigenetic changes that are not only useless but detrimental.
Are yo referring to message 84? You then were talking about detrimental mutations. Epigenetic changes after being selected by natural selection could not be detrimental.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 10-19-2012 11:02 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:03 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 115 of 264 (676149)
10-19-2012 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Taq
10-19-2012 11:00 AM


Then please show how the process of mutagenesis is different in metazoans and how that results in non-random mutations.
As i said there is not still such evidence,. for the same reason that evidence of random mutations in metazoa is missing.Perhaps you as well should feel obliged, in spite of blindly believing in random mutatations,to show that the processes of evolution in one cell organisms and metazoa are not different, instead of applying with so much easiness the same conclusions to different things and situations, which is totally unscientific
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Taq, posted 10-19-2012 11:00 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Admin, posted 10-20-2012 8:06 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:00 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 116 of 264 (676150)
10-19-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
10-19-2012 10:57 AM


What evidence would you have to see in order to admit that mutations are not guided.
Not more than you, after 150 ys of Darwinism have you managed to bring here to support random mutations in metazoa.
Are they permanent or dynamic? You need to choose one.
They are both.
Also, how does the environment make mutations non-random with respect to fitness.
. By using epigenetic changes to guide mutations to specific direction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 10-19-2012 10:57 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 117 of 264 (676151)
10-19-2012 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by herebedragons
10-19-2012 9:48 AM


Re: Please explain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an analogy may explain what I think Zi Ko is saying.
Mutation is going to shoot an arrow, but it can't see where the target is. Nature, however, has a way to call out to mutation to say "aim this way", so that the arrow will be shot in the general direction of the target. But mutation still fires in a relatively random direction because it cannot actually see the target. Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target.
The big thing is that nature is almost a being in and of itself and is directing all natural processes, so what looks random really isn't, but guided by some supernatural force (nature itself). If anything survives and thrives then that is considered evidence that the process is guided. If anything dies or goes extinct, that is also evidence that nature had deemed it necessary to ensure survival of other life.
Zi Ko's philosophy seems very Eastern in nature and very difficult for us with a more Western philosophy to get a handle on.
HBD
No. i am misundestood.Environment is Affecting organisms (metazoa) epigenetically. Long after , maybe thousand of ys, the eigenetic change, as environment contnues to press on the same direction, prepares the field and shows about the direction of the useful mutations to happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by herebedragons, posted 10-19-2012 9:48 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 118 of 264 (676152)
10-19-2012 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Please explain
And I'm asking you how nature would prevent this thing it would not allow. What is the process by which economics are taken into account?
Nature does not prevent anything. What does not allow, and it is not economially sensible to happen, is the up to then epigenetic processes and changes to be usless.Nature use them to show about the direction to next mutations.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 9:59 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 8:30 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 119 of 264 (676153)
10-19-2012 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Please explain
In short, (and again) stop treating nature as a person or deity and tell me how this thing you say happens would or could work. What would prevent an elongated giraffes neck from becoming a useless or even a detrimental change?
I don't treat nature as aa person or deity. I only treat environmental information as it is deserved to be treated and in line of my belief that the Univerce is made by substance and information communicating between substance.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 9:59 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Coyote, posted 10-19-2012 11:21 PM zi ko has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 120 of 264 (676154)
10-19-2012 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by zi ko
10-19-2012 11:07 PM


Re: Please explain
At least as relevant to this topic as what you're posting, and much more readable:
A Man Said to the Universe
By Stephen Crane
A man said to the universe:
Sir, I exist!"
However, replied the universe,
The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 11:07 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2012 5:05 AM Coyote has not replied

  
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