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Author Topic:   Yet another Congressman who doesn't accept the theory of evolution
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 61 of 231 (676198)
10-20-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Theodoric
10-20-2012 9:16 AM


Re: Forever hurls insults. Again.
Theodoric writes:
Ahh the Foreveryoung we know and love is back. Personal attacks are all you seem to be good at.
A small "correction" here. As I see it, foreveryoung did not actually make a personal attack in Message 55. His attack was against a group, rather than against persons. And the group was only vaguely specified with nobody explicitly listed as part of that group.
We can all readily judge who foreveryoung thought to be in that group. But since he did not identify individual persons, I see "personal attacks" as not quite correct. Although I take myself is intended to be part of the attacked group, this was not the same as a personal attack on me.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Granny Magda, posted 10-20-2012 11:55 AM nwr has replied
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Granny Magda
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Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 62 of 231 (676199)
10-20-2012 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by nwr
10-20-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Forever hurls insults. Again.
Hi NWR,
You say that as if it makes it better. It doesn't. It makes it worse.
Foreveryoung seems to think that he can safely dismiss everyone on this board simply because many people here are far better educated than he is. He acts as though not knowing things is superior to knowing things. That is even more egotistical, illogical and offensive than mere personal attacks in my opinion. I mean, a personal attack on me or you might at least be true. But to attack anyone and everyone with an education, simply for having that education? That is crazy talk, pure and simple.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by nwr, posted 10-20-2012 11:48 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 63 of 231 (676200)
10-20-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by foreveryoung
10-20-2012 12:59 AM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
There is not one original thought in every last one of you.
What? I'm full of original thoughts. For example, just the other day I came up with this wildly novel idea. What I reckon is --- this will blow your mind --- what I reckon is that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, Let there be light, and there was light ...
... wait, my wife's telling me that someone already thought of that 2,500 years ago. Boy, is my face red!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by foreveryoung, posted 10-20-2012 12:59 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 12:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 64 of 231 (676201)
10-20-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
10-20-2012 11:19 AM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
It's not so much that we all think the same way but more that we all accept the same facts, and our opinions are constrained by those facts. Those who reject facts do tend to have a wider variety of opinion.
So what are the facts you are talking about?
How did the universe begin to exist?
How did life on earth begin to exist?
All other facts are based upon those two hypothesis.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 10-20-2012 11:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 2:47 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 5:25 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 75 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 7:47 AM ICANT has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 65 of 231 (676205)
10-20-2012 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Granny Magda
10-20-2012 11:55 AM


Re: Forever hurls insults. Again.
Granny Magda writes:
You say that as if it makes it better. It doesn't. It makes it worse.
Oh, I agree. It certainly makes foreveryoung look worse than if he had merely had a fit of anger against one person.
I had thought about directly replying to foreveryoung in Message 55, but then I realized that I could not find anything more critical to say about him, than what he had just said about himself. So I am mostly just watching the entertainment.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Granny Magda, posted 10-20-2012 11:55 AM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 66 of 231 (676206)
10-20-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
10-20-2012 12:10 PM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, Let there be light, and there was light ...
... wait, my wife's telling me that someone already thought of that 2,500 years ago. Boy, is my face red!
Correction:
Actually those words were not used 2500 years ago. That was a translation of the Hebrew words that was recorded some 2500 years ago.
We could argue as to whether the translation was correct or not, but we would need to do that in a different thread.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-20-2012 12:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-20-2012 12:45 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 67 of 231 (676209)
10-20-2012 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ICANT
10-20-2012 12:21 PM


My Monkey Is Wearing A Hat
I was talking about the idea, not the words. The language doesn't make a difference: the idea "My monkey is wearing a hat" is the same idea as "Ma singe porte un chapeau".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 12:21 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 68 of 231 (676210)
10-20-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Granny Magda
10-20-2012 11:55 AM


Re: Forever hurls insults. Again.
But to attack anyone and everyone with an education, simply for having that education?
Khmer Rouge, anyone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Granny Magda, posted 10-20-2012 11:55 AM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

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dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(3)
Message 69 of 231 (676211)
10-20-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by foreveryoung
10-20-2012 12:59 AM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
I don't consider you people educated in the real sense of the word. When I say the "educated" man, I mean the propagandized, group thinked, and brainwashed man. You all think exactly the same way. There is not one original thought in every last one of you. That is what I am calling "educated".
So then by "educated" you mean "dogmatic." Like fundamentalist Christians who must all accept the dogma they are taught and be very careful to not actually think about any of what they are told.
I am much more educated in the real sense than any of you robots are or will ever hope to be.
So then just exactly what is being "educated in the real sense"? Just exactly how does it differ from fundamentalist indoctrination and brainwashing?
Add that to the list of words you need to define and so far have refused to.
I have long noticed that the fundamentalist view of education seems very different from the normal view of education. In my Message 46, I discuss that as well as quoting from the Anti-Dogmatism Statement in the 1990 California Board of Education Science Framework; abridged here:
quote:
Nothing in science or in any other field of knowledge shall be taught dogmatically. Dogma is a system of beliefs that is not subject to scientific test and refutation. Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding.
To be fully informed citizens, students do not have to accept everything that is taught in the natural science curriculum, but they do have to understand the major strands of scientific thought, including its methods, facts, hypotheses, theories, and laws.
. . .
Ultimately, students should be made aware of the difference between understanding, which is the goal of education, and subscribing to ideas.
To that, I offered a practical example and then discussed the attitude about education that I have gotten from fundamentalists over the decades:
DWise1 writes:
The fundamental idea that was conveyed by that first link was that the goal of education is the understanding of the ideas being taught, not that the students should actually be required to believe in those ideas. As a practical example, in 1982 I attended the first phase of the United States Air Force Non-Commissioned Officer Academy, "Leadership School", which in 1982 for the Air Force Communications Command was held at Keesler AFB, MS. Part of our curriculum in that course was an examination of Communism and of the USSR's government structure. Obviously, we were being required to understand the concepts of Communism and of the Soviet government and how it functioned. Obviously, at no time were we being required to accept and believe in the concepts of Communism nor of the Soviet government.
When Christian fundamentalists are involved in education, it repeatedly appears to deal far more with indoctrination rather than with understanding.
What is the purpose of education? To understand a variety of ideas? Or to be indoctrinated in one particular set of ideas. That seems to be the source of conflict here.
I have been on-line trying to discuss "creation/evolution" since the mid-1980's, a bit over 20 years now (to down-play it a bit). One scenario I have encountered more than a few times was with a creationist whom I asked to think it all through and whose response was something like, "If I were to do that, then that would require me to accept evolution!"
. . .
In short, a Christian fundamentalist believes that he has to actually believe in something before he could ever begin to think about it. Whereas normals realize without even thinking about it that ideas are ideas and nothing more.
As a result, in science education, the ideas of science are presented and the students are required to understand those ideas.
Whenever "creation science" is taught, the students are required to choose those creationist ideas over the ideas of science.
In the former situation, where the students are required to understand the ideas, they learn to understand the ideas.
In the latter situation, where the students are required to believe the ideas they are taught, the stupid ones believe the religious nonsense that's been taught them, whereas the smart ones can see through the deception and will choose atheism, an artificial decision that had only been forced upon them by creation science.
Now, it is true that when fundamentalist Christians go to college and university, many of them suffer some crises of faith. Christian youth ministers who don't go into denial about this (entire churches do, though) place those figures of young people raised as fundamentalists leaving religion altogether at upwards of 80% -- more conservative under-estimates are at about 60%. The "reasons" they offer to explain this demonstrate that they don't yet have a handle on the real reasons, but at least those few youth ministers do realize that they have a problem, which is the first step.
It appears that the main reason is not hedonism as marc9000 and most fundamentalists imagine, nor is it exposure to what science really is and what it really teaches as I and I'm sure many here imagine. Rather, it is the humanities, such as English lit. Where students are taught that there is more than one perspective and part of what literature does is to present the world through a perspective different from the reader's own perspective. To think about and understand new ideas. To broaden the students' minds, which can have a devastating effect on the shackled mind raised on fundamentalist indoctrination and brainwashing. Of course, learning about other religions and religious views and the history of their own religion also contributes.
So then, please do teach us what exactly being "educated in the real sense" is and how it works.
PS
In keeping with others' remarks that you are advocating taking pride in ignorance, I offer a quotation from Dr. Steven Schimmrich. He's an active evangelical Christian and in the 1980's and 1990's was very active on-line in discussions about religion and science while he was a post-graduate student working on his PhD Physical Geology; his on-line presence abruptly ceased after he graduated because he had to devote more time to his new career and family. He was also a strong opponent of "creation science" and I'm sure that he still is, just not as vocal on-line.
From his What is a Creationist?:
quote:
I've read many of the materials written by young-earth creationists such as Steve Austin, Thomas Barnes, Carl Baugh, Duane Gish, Ken Ham, Henry Morris, John Morris, Gary Parker, and Harold Slusher among others. I'm also very familiar with the material put out by Answers in Genesis, the Institute for Creation Research and the Creation Research Society. In addition, I've even attended lectures and seminars by several well-known young-earth creationists.
In general, I've been dismayed by the lack of scholarship, research, and ethics displayed by these men who claim to be devout Christians. They totally misrepresent mainstream science and scientists, ignore evidence contrary to their claims, and display an amazing ignorance of even the most basic fundamentals of science and scientific inquiry. Their materials are aimed toward laypeople who are in no position to evaluate their claims. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but who is better qualified to judge the accuracy of K-Ar dating, an evangelist who reads creationist literature and has never taken a physics or geology course in his life or a Ph.D. in isotope geochemistry (who may also be a devout Christian) who has spent 25 years studying K-Ar dating in granites?
According to you, that PhD Isotope Geochemistry and devout Christian who has studied K-Ar dating in granites cannot be trusted because he is "educated", whereas that "creation science" evangelist is a reliable expert on the subject. Isn't that the position that you are arguing for? Can't even you see how foolish that position is?
{ABE}
PPS
Plus there's the case of Glenn R. Morton. First he was "educated" (ie, indoctrinated) by the YEC "geologists" at the Institute for Creation Research (ICR, whose president, Dr. Henry Morris, PhD Hydraulic Engineering, "Father of Flood Geology", quite literally wrote the book on "creation science geology"). Then he went to work as a field geologist for a petroleum exploration company. The rock-solid geological evidence that he had to work with in the real world demonstrated that everything that the ICR had taught him as challenging traditional geology was completely and utter false. The fellow geology graduates from the ICR that he had hired went through the exact same experience. All of them suffered crises of faith because of their YEC indoctrination. Or as you would put it, because they had been "educated" by fundamentalists.
Edited by dwise1, : PPS

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by foreveryoung, posted 10-20-2012 12:59 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 231 (676216)
10-20-2012 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by nwr
10-20-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Forever hurls insults. Again.
His attack was against a group, rather than against persons. And the group was only vaguely specified with nobody explicitly listed as part of that group.
The group was "vaguely" specified as including every participant in this thread up to the time of his post other than himself. In other words, it is not vague at all. Perhaps that still isn't personal, but it is not vague.
I take it as an attempt to be personal, but given the clear inaccuracy of the insults, I take it as a failed attack.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by nwr, posted 10-20-2012 11:48 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 71 of 231 (676217)
10-20-2012 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
10-20-2012 12:10 PM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
What facts?
Perhaps you would like to educate yourself via the gift of the Internets. Honestly, they provide so much information that once you have absorbed it you can come back here to discuss it.
Or not do that and ask for what has been provided an ignored for years.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 12:10 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 72 of 231 (676218)
10-20-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coragyps
10-20-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Forever hurls insults. Again.
Khmer Rouge, anyone?
Republican Party.
Zing.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coragyps, posted 10-20-2012 12:46 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 231 (676231)
10-20-2012 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
10-20-2012 12:10 PM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
So what are the facts you are talking about?
Here is a fact for you. The earth is much older than 9,000 years old. There is plenty of evidence backing that up. In fact, I don't believe there to be a single poster to this thread, including you and foreveryoung, who believes otherwise.
Accordingly, the earth being older than 9,000 years old is not a lie from the pits of hell.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 12:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 2:21 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 74 of 231 (676247)
10-21-2012 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by NoNukes
10-20-2012 5:25 PM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Here is a fact for you. The earth is much older than 9,000 years old. There is plenty of evidence backing that up. In fact, I don't believe there to be a single poster to this thread, including you and foreveryoung, who believes otherwise.
The Bible gives evidence that the earth and heavens are much older than 9,000 years.
The Bible says in the beginning. I have found no one who can tell me when the beginning was.
YEC'S tell me 6,000 years ago. Some even streach it out to 10,000 years ago.
Science tells me the earth began to exist a little over 4 billion years ago, and it tells me the universe began to exist between 8 billion and 20 billion years ago.
Personally I believe the universe has always existed in some form. But not necessarily in the form we see it today.
NoNukes writes:
Accordingly, the earth being older than 9,000 years old is not a lie from the pits of hell.
Agreed, but there are those who believe the lie that the earth and universe is less than 10,000 years old and that lie comes from the pits of hell.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 5:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 10-21-2012 11:08 AM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 75 of 231 (676254)
10-21-2012 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
10-20-2012 12:10 PM


Re: Mainstream Media? Really?
ICANT writes:
So what are the facts you are talking about?
Well, I wasn't actually talking about facts. The thread is about yet another congressman who rejects the theory of evolution, and in essence my point was that what he has in common with you and ForEverYoung is a proclivity for picking and choosing among facts, leaving aside those inconvenient for your beliefs.
How did the universe begin to exist?
How did life on earth begin to exist?
All other facts are based upon those two hypothesis.
You've just referred to your two questions as both facts and hypotheses. I sense some confusion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 12:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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