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Author Topic:   The Simplest Protein of Life
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2866 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 166 of 281 (676245)
10-21-2012 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by onifre
10-20-2012 12:33 PM


Re: Your case is lost...
Same difference, Oni. If rephrased along your suggestions, the question is what is the age of duration? Still, the same kind of self-referential and stupid. Genesis writers could be excused for naively asking it, the bigbangists deserve contempt only.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by onifre, posted 10-20-2012 12:33 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 12:02 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2612 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 167 of 281 (676264)
10-21-2012 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-20-2012 11:55 PM


Re: Your case is lost...
No, Pandy. - Yes, Mad

You are surrounded only by the overwhelming evidence that life is present. - No, I am surrounded by a vast amount of evidence that life began.

No evidence that life had begun is surrounding you at all. - No, I am surrounded by a vast amount of evidence that life began.

Vast difference. - Wrong

Stick to the facts and leave conjectures alone and you'll be a good Pandy. - If you stick to the facts, I will leave your bullshit conjectures alone.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-20-2012 11:55 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-21-2012 9:47 AM Panda has not yet responded
 Message 179 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-21-2012 4:42 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2612 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 168 of 281 (676265)
10-21-2012 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-21-2012 12:18 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
if the cat needed a peremptory arbiter of what is and was is not - You do

you would be the last in line for the job. - That position is already filled by the crazy voices in your head?

but so far you only have shown you are blunt kind of dumb. - That sounds like someone unable to defend their claims.

Do you have any friends? Have you ever shown them what you write on this forum?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-21-2012 12:18 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-21-2012 4:15 PM Panda has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2866 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 169 of 281 (676267)
10-21-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Panda
10-21-2012 8:53 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
What is the evidence life as such had begun you are surrounded with? You see none. You just indulge in repeating other monkeys' interpretations and peddling them as facts. You need to learn the scientific method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Panda, posted 10-21-2012 8:53 AM Panda has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 170 of 281 (676271)
10-21-2012 10:40 AM


When titans collide
In this thread I see nothing but chaos. It is no longer impossible to tell who the truly insane are.

Some things to consider carefully when you see a post so far wrong that you must respond:

1. Perhaps the poster is a troll, and cares little for his/her own reputation. Your response is the attention the troll craves.

2. Perhaps the poster is insane and can learn nothing from even the most rational of arguments. You cannot heal the insane.

Yeah, I know. I should follow my own advice.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 171 of 281 (676279)
10-21-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-21-2012 12:46 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
If rephrased along your suggestions, the question is what is the age of duration?

We experience time at the speed of light.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-21-2012 12:46 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-21-2012 12:32 PM onifre has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2866 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 172 of 281 (676283)
10-21-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by onifre
10-21-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Your case is lost...
That is the experience of present. Cause passing into effect experienced as now. Not a duration. Which is comparative needing a standard of reference. Duration as such is an abstraction of all possible durations so may have no age whatever Hawking et al. could tell you to the contrary.

Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 12:02 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 7:00 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 173 of 281 (676290)
10-21-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by NoNukes
10-20-2012 4:44 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

In other words, we don't have to identify the exact process or even the exact simplest proton that actually formed the basis of life on the planet. The question can even be answered if life did not begin through abiogenesis.

You can know it exists without knowing how the simplest protein began to exist.

But without knowing how the simplest protein began to exist you can not say whether it is impossible or possible for the simplest protein to begin to exist guided or unguided.

NoNukes writes:

In essence you are asking a form of the chicken and the egg question.

I thought everybody knew the answer to that question.

The chicken came first.

Are you saying the information was not required before the protein could begin to exist?

NoNukes writes:

Some molecule serving some of the roles of primitive DNA, could manufacture a chemical useful for a self replicating molecule. That chemical would be a protein, even if we could not truly call that primitive primitive molecule DNA.

Whatever that molecule was it had to have the information required to form the first protein.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 4:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 10-21-2012 7:06 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 186 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 7:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 174 of 281 (676293)
10-21-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
10-20-2012 5:19 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

The opening post asks about the ribonuclease protein, which is relevant to one of the abiogenesis hypotheses where the first life used RNA instead of DNA. As has been pointed out in this thread many times, the ribonuclease protein of the earliest life may have borne little resemblance to modern versions.

DNA carries the genetic information to produce proteins. The DNA carries the information of a cell and consists of thousands of genes. Each gene serves as a recipe on how to build a protein molecule.

The flow of information from the genes determines the protein composition and thereby the functions of the cell.

When a protein is needed the proper gene is transcribed into RNA removing all non-codeing parts.

This information is then transported outside of the nucleus where the information is transcribed creating the specified protein in the ribosome.

This is the known method of creating a protein.

If information is required to produce a protein now why would it not have been required for the first protein?

If information was not supplied for the first protein then all the amino acids had to come together in the correct order by chance, but you say that would be incredibly unlikely.

The question is where did the information come from?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 10-20-2012 5:19 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 3:04 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 188 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 7:15 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 175 of 281 (676295)
10-21-2012 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Larni
10-20-2012 3:00 PM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Larni,

Larni writes:

Are you saying length is a human construct?

No.

Length exists.

Humans have devised a series of numbers that they have declared to be the numbers used to measure increments of that length.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 3:00 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 176 of 281 (676298)
10-21-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by ICANT
10-21-2012 1:56 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi ICANT,

It is believed that the complex molecules of life and the information they contain developed over time through a process of repeated cycles of modification and selection, because this is the kind of process we observe in life today.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 1:56 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 4:39 PM Percy has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2866 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 177 of 281 (676302)
10-21-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Panda
10-21-2012 8:59 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Yes, Panda's Thumby, I link Bill Gaede and his mates in Rational Science on FB to the cat's discussions on cosmogony with the simian professors here. They love an occasional chuckle at the expense of the prevaricating big-bangist re-ificators.
Bill is a real scientist and straight thinker. The feline does not have to agree with him on everything to say that. He favours indefinite number of instances of abiogenesis over panspermia in the same ageless Universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Panda, posted 10-21-2012 8:59 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Panda, posted 10-22-2012 8:58 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 178 of 281 (676304)
10-21-2012 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
10-21-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

It is believed that the complex molecules of life and the information they contain developed over time through a process of repeated cycles of modification and selection, because this is the kind of process we observe in life today.

Yes there are those who believe that.

Information theory disagrees with information increasing by modification and selection over time without outside input.

There are many that believe life forms was created by a supernatural being.

Darwin said on page 490 of The Origin of the Species:

quote:
There is grandeur in this view of life,
with its several powers, having been originally breathed
into a few forme or into one ; and that, whilst this planet
has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity,
from no simple a beginning endless forms most
beautiful and moat wonderful have been, and are being,
evolved.

Darwin believed some life form produced the life on earth. Whether is was with many life forms or with one.

But you are saying that because things change today by modification and selection over time that life began to exist in the same way.

That is an assumption for which there is no evidence.

And then there is me who believes life has always existed in some form.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 3:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 5:11 PM ICANT has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2866 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 179 of 281 (676305)
10-21-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Panda
10-21-2012 8:53 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Probably the cat needs to chew and re-chew it all out for you lot.
You can see full evidence of individual life starting from other life and you see ample evidence of individual life ending. That is all. Extrapolating from this that life as such had started rather than it had been continuing as the evidence suggests, and calling that a fact is cheating. Your projection is a legitimate guess and no more. That is the scientific method you need to learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Panda, posted 10-21-2012 8:53 AM Panda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Larni, posted 10-21-2012 5:20 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 180 of 281 (676310)
10-21-2012 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by ICANT
10-21-2012 4:39 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi ICANT,

Copying errors during replication add information to genomes today, and in the same way copying errors would have added information to ancient replicators leading up to the first life.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 4:39 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 11:46 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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