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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 210 of 3207 (676397)
10-22-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Straggler
10-22-2012 2:49 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Straggler writes:
What makes you think that gods are even a possibility other than our ability to imagine them as such?
What makes you think anything is a possibility?
This is how science works: We imagine a possibility. Then we devise ways to test that possibility. Only when every test has failed can we say that something is impossible. The catch is that we can never know if we have tried every possible test.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 2:49 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 211 of 3207 (676399)
10-22-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Straggler
10-22-2012 2:56 PM


Re: Snakes may be in the pudding
Straggler writes:
Well if no-one had conceived of elephants before finding them they would be discovered before being conceived of.
There still has to be some pre-existing concept, some framework for the new data to fit into. The first human to see an elephant would have to think, "That's some kind of animal, like a deer but different...."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 2:56 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 214 of 3207 (676405)
10-22-2012 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Straggler
10-22-2012 3:15 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Straggler writes:
The Higgs Boson (for example) wasn't just plucked out of the air. Nor was anti-matter. Space-time curvature. Evolution. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
That's what I'm saying. The idea has to exist before we know what to look for or how to look for it. You don't just find a Higgs boson under the microscope and say, "What the hell is that?" You have to have an idea where a Higgs boson might be and what it might "look like" before you can go looking for it.
Straggler writes:
I'm saying it's more likely to be a product of human invention than a real thing.
If that's all you're saying, you can save your breath. Nobody's arguing against that.
What I'm arguing against is extrapolating from "more likely" to "I know". If I deal out five cards, a pair is "more likely" than a royal flush. I'm saying that you can't "know" you'll get a pair on the basis of it being "more likely."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:35 PM ringo has replied
 Message 219 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 3:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 215 of 3207 (676406)
10-22-2012 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
10-22-2012 3:20 PM


Re: Snakes may be in the pudding
Straggler writes:
But the whole idea of supernaturality seems (based on all the evidence) to be a human construct designed to fulfill very human internal needs with nothing external to support it.
How do you distinguish between advanced technology and magic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:20 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 220 of 3207 (676411)
10-22-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Straggler
10-22-2012 3:31 PM


Re: Snakes may be in the pudding
Straggler writes:
Are you suggesting that gods are just aliens with super-advanced-technology rather than genuinely supernatural beings?
I'm asking how you would distinguish between the two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 221 of 3207 (676413)
10-22-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Rahvin
10-22-2012 3:33 PM


Re: Snakes may be in the pudding
Rahvin writes:
There are many "god" hypotheses, ringo, from many cultures. Just about every single one, however, involves an entity that will respond favorably to prayer or ritual.
Yet in every test ever performed, prayer and ritual provides no meaningful statistical result distinguishable from doing nothing at all.
There you go again, defining God out of existence. If elephants are defined as "large herbivores that live in Africa" then the one in your living room doesn't count - but it doesn't cease to exist either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 3:33 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 223 of 3207 (676415)
10-22-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Straggler
10-22-2012 3:35 PM


Re: Absence of Certainty - Likelihood Only Option
Straggler writes:
Do you know that the Sun will rise tomorrow?
No.
I know how to bake a cake. I can demonstrate to you that I know.
I think it's pretty likely that the sun will rise tomorrow but I can't demonstrate it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:35 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Panda, posted 10-22-2012 6:34 PM ringo has replied
 Message 234 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2012 3:27 AM ringo has replied
 Message 235 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2012 8:00 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 224 of 3207 (676416)
10-22-2012 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Rahvin
10-22-2012 3:37 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Rahvin writes:
That's the way it happened, but that doesn't mean it was a requirement - many similar discoveries have been made simply by analyzing aberrant data, simply stumbling over something important that we never even knew was there.
Data can only be aberrant if there is a framework for it to deviate from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 3:37 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 4:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 225 of 3207 (676418)
10-22-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Straggler
10-22-2012 3:50 PM


Re: Snakes may be in the pudding
Straggler writes:
Well one is able to be explained by natural laws and phenomena whilst the other cannot be because it genuinely isn't natural.
What's the difference between something that "genuinely isn't natural" and something that we don't have a natural explanation for yet?
Straggler writes:
So how are you concluding that gods are anything other than a case of mistaken identity combined with the human idea that there actually exists beings that can defy natural reality in some way?
I'm concluding that gods might be something that we can't explain yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Straggler, posted 10-22-2012 3:50 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2012 8:06 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 228 of 3207 (676423)
10-22-2012 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Rahvin
10-22-2012 4:03 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Rahvin writes:
ringo writes:
Data can only be aberrant if there is a framework for it to deviate from.
Irrelevant.
On the contrary, it's thoroughly relevant. All knowledge builds on previous knowledge. There is no such thing as a discovery in a vacuum. The idea exists before the discovery. (Not all ideas become discoveries, of course.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 4:03 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2012 4:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 229 of 3207 (676424)
10-22-2012 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Rahvin
10-22-2012 4:05 PM


Re: Snakes may be in the pudding
Rahvin writes:
... if we're discussing whether "gods" exist, we must only be considering that subset of phenomenon that, if observed, would recognizably be a "god."
But we have to find it before we can decide whether it's a god or not. While we're looking for possible gods, we shouldn't have overly specific notions about what one will look like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 4:05 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 231 of 3207 (676429)
10-22-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Tangle
10-22-2012 4:41 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Tangle writes:
It seems to me that we stumble across most things, then try to explain them.
How do we explain them except in the context of what is already known?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2012 4:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2012 5:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 3207 (676500)
10-23-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Stile
10-23-2012 10:37 AM


Re: A good foundation
Stile writes:
I would suggest that in order to move past the confusion... and since you do not agree with the definitions that I have provided... then you can provide new definitions for "knowing things" and "God" in order to discuss the ideas in the way you think is best.
I have.
I have said that knowledge can be demonstrated - e.g. the knowledge of how to bake a cake. The sun coming up tomorrow can not be demonstrated before the fact and therefore is not knowledge until after the fact. The notion that we have looked "everywhere" for God an not found Him is far too sweeping a generalization to be demonstrable.
I have also said that "God" is a possible entity with powers that are not yet understood.
Columbus didn't "know" that he could reach Asia by sailing westward. He believed it. His belief was wrong for two reasons: first because there was an unexpected obstacle - the Americas - and second because he didn't have the technology to sail that far non-stop. (As it turned out, Magellan's expedition succeeded in circumnavigating the world because the obstacle provided a place for them to re-provision - i.e. two wrongs cancelled each other out.)
Similarly, you don`t "know" that God doesn't exist - unless you define God as something that you haven`t found yet. You believe that God doesn't exist. There's a gray area between belief and knowledge and our disagreement is over the shade of gray.
I prefer to keep my gray as clean as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Stile, posted 10-23-2012 10:37 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Panda, posted 10-23-2012 12:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 245 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2012 1:20 PM ringo has replied
 Message 248 by Stile, posted 10-23-2012 1:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 242 of 3207 (676507)
10-23-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Panda
10-23-2012 12:24 PM


Re: A good foundation
panda writes:
*Given up arguing with Ringo's special pleading*
If you think there's any specal pleading involved, feel free to point it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Panda, posted 10-23-2012 12:24 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Panda, posted 10-23-2012 12:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 244 of 3207 (676511)
10-23-2012 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Panda
10-23-2012 12:48 PM


Re: A good foundation
Panda writes:
The third time's the charm? I doubt it.
Seriously, I don't recall special pleading ever being suggested in this thread. If it has been, link it. If not, explain yourself. Don't just run away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Panda, posted 10-23-2012 12:48 PM Panda has not replied

  
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