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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 280 of 318 (676045)
10-18-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by jar
10-18-2012 12:32 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:
I have not tested GOD.
Then you are special pleading the object of your own belief.
jar writes:
I do not assert my irrational beliefs as fact.
You relentlessly cite your definitions as if they were something more than the expression of your personal beliefs.
jar writes:
Yes people can define most anything as supernatural and as I continue to point out, they have.
Your entire argument is founded on the object of your belief (and nothing else) being classed as supernatural. There is no difference between you and them.
jar writes:
GOD, if GOD exists will be supernatural.
Straggler writes:
How do you know this?
jar writes:
And I've answered that before but I'm willing to try again. I do not KNOW that, I believe that.
Your definitions and your beliefs are but one miserable whole.
jar writes:
I will continue though to post about my beliefs.
You are of course welcome to do that.
But will you stop putting forward your definitions as if they were something more than the expression of your irrational beliefs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 12:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 3:48 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 282 of 318 (676050)
10-18-2012 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by jar
10-18-2012 3:48 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:
I have said I am open to learning about something that really is supernatural, all you need to do is present a way to test to determine something really is supernatural.
The same test you apply to GOD.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 3:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 3:58 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 284 of 318 (676178)
10-20-2012 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
10-18-2012 3:58 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
You believe that GOD, and GOD alone, is genuinely supernatural.
Other people believe that other entities are genuinely supernatural.
The only test those who believe in the supernatural, including you, ever seem to apply is the "Do I believe it's supernatural" test.
And I don't think highly personalised beliefs are a sensible basis for defining anything if the aim of a definition is common usage of terminology for the purposes of effective communication.
Straggler writes:
Can you give me an example of a god or a God that isn't supernatural or doesn't have supernatural abilities?
jar writes:
All of the Gods or gods.
jar writes:
GOD, if GOD exists will be supernatural.
Sraggler writes:
How do you know this?
jar writes:
I do not KNOW that, I believe that.
It's all just your personal belief. Which isn't a sensible basis for defining anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 10-18-2012 3:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:00 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 286 of 318 (676184)
10-20-2012 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by jar
10-20-2012 10:00 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:
I agree that many people believe many things are supernatural, but I also see no way while I am simply a human living in this natural world to actually determine if something really is supernatural.
A GOD, if a GOD exists, would really be supernatural.
Are you stating this as a fact or a belief?
jar writes:
Other things might also really be supernatural.
I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:23 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 10-21-2012 10:19 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 288 of 318 (676186)
10-20-2012 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
10-20-2012 10:23 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
I also believe that Thor, if Thor as popularly conceived existed, would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:36 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 290 of 318 (676188)
10-20-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
10-20-2012 10:36 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
So what is it that makes demons supernatural but Thor not?
What attributes does one possess that the other doesn't such that one qualifies as supernatural (if it exists) but the other doesn't (if it exists)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 10:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 11:09 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 293 of 318 (676394)
10-22-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
10-20-2012 11:09 AM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:
Well, demons is a super vague term and so we really don't have a clue what it might be.
So now the criteria you are applying to judge if something is supernatural or not is ambiguity?
I also believe that Allah, if Allah exists, would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?
I also believe that Voldermort, if Voldermort as described by JK. Rowling actually existed (I'll grant you this isn't likely - but IF), would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 10-20-2012 11:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 3:26 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 294 of 318 (676396)
10-22-2012 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Phat
10-21-2012 10:19 AM


Re: Clarification
Straggler writes:
I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural. Am I wrong?
Phat writes:
No. You are entitled to exclusive beliefs. Beliefs by definition cannot be inclusive.
If I were to believe that you are supernatural Phat - Would I be wrong?
Beliefs are not the be-all-and-end-all of reality. In fact they have very little effect at all....
Phat writes:
hmmmm. this is getting funny!
Dude it's hilarious!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 10-21-2012 10:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 296 of 318 (676412)
10-22-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by jar
10-22-2012 3:26 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
As an atheist and non-supernaturalist it goes almost without saying that I think that Allah and Voldermort and demons and GOD are all most likely human constructs rather than real beings.
But that is completely beside the point because we have already qualified the question with "IF they exist".
So I put it you again:
I believe that Allah, if Allah exists, would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?
I believe that Voldermort, if Voldermort as described by JK. Rowling actually exists, would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?
I don't think either exist. But I am asking you IF they did exist would they be supernatural?
Try not to conflate the question of existnce with the question of supernaturality.
jar writes:
I have a very high degree of confidence that they are both simply human constructs just like the Christian God.
And thus they are not supernatural in your eyes.
jar writes:
Demons, if demons existed, would be supernatural.
How confident are you about the existence of demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 3:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 4:04 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 301 of 318 (676512)
10-23-2012 1:04 PM


Summary
Without definition or attribute the term GOD is literally meaningless. Any discussion about such a non-concept is doomed to be incoherent gibberish. This we have seen in this thread.
Jar's much cited position of "nuance" is simply a self-serving extended expression of his irrational beliefs. Nothing more. And at the root of that is this same non-cogent notion of a non-concept. A non-concept that he apparently believes (along with demons but not Allah or Thor) would be supernatural if it existed. The only consistent criteria being applied to qualify as supernatural being 'Does jar think so'.
The esoteric believings of a particular individual are, of course, not a sensible basis for defining anything. Definitions as a basis for communication require common conceptual meaning to be applied to terminology. With that in mind...
I have seen nothing in this thread to deter from use of the term god (or God or GOD) as referring to a supernatural conscious being that is responsible for the creation or overseeing of some aspect of reality. Something like the following dictionary definition:
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine
And on the related subject of what we mean by "supernatural" - Again if you want common conceptual meaning the dictionary is your friend:
1.of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena
The idea that hijacking commonly used terms and redefining them (such that the object of one's own belief is elevated by definition above all those other human-construct-god-concepts) is the path to clarity and nuance rather than a method of imposing one's assumptions into discussions about the existence of a certain type of supernatural creator - Is ridiculous.

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 312 of 318 (820196)
09-17-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
09-15-2017 11:56 AM


Re: BLOP is hubbuluteral
"Within the context of your personal belief" (AKA inside your own head) Leprechauns, unicorns and the great God JuJu could all be said to 'exist'. I can imagine all three of those things. Is that your definition of 'God'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 11:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:28 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 314 of 318 (820219)
09-17-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
09-17-2017 3:28 PM


Re: BLOP is hubbuluteral
Not really.
My point (from absolutely ages ago) is that saying you believe in X without having the foggiest idea what X is, is nonsensical.
Hence the thread about defining/describing what is meant by GOD (or whatever label one wishes to apply).
It's about our old friend ignosticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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